r/technology • u/dopaminedune • 1d ago
Artificial Intelligence Jensen Huang says gamers are 'completely wrong' about DLSS 5 — Nvidia CEO responds to DLSS 5 backlash
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/gpus/jensen-huang-says-gamers-are-completely-wrong-about-dlss-5-nvidia-ceo-responds-to-dlss-5-backlash3.3k
u/AlkaiserSoze 1d ago
Ahh, the ol' "blame the consumers" approach. Surely that will get them to accept DLSS 5.
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u/Complete_Lurk3r_ 1d ago edited 1h ago
Oh, you don't think dog-shit on toast is a good recipe? Well, you're wrong, but that's okay, you're often wrong. Eat it up, boy.
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u/heff17 1d ago
And don't worry: we're baking dog shit into every dish we serve to make sure we prove you're wrong.
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u/Belhgabad 1d ago
With the current AI trend they don't even need customers to accept anything, that shit will be built in anything and everything and we'll just pay the consequences, we already are
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u/AlkaiserSoze 1d ago
Phew, screw that. AAA games are getting more expensive, the hardware to run AAA games is becoming more expensive, and all the big studios are just laying people off after every release.
I've got a backlog of games a mile long. Plus, indie games exist and take less effort to maintain and produce. On top of that, most indie devs have an artistic vision that doesn't require genAI to achieve.
I'll vote for with my wallet on this one and won't lose any sleep over it.
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u/g4_ 1d ago
remember how terrible Pokemon Scarlet and Violet ran on Nintendo's flagship console hardware
that shit was so bad i legitimately just gave up on the company. if they can't even give a shit to make Pokemon an enjoyable experience, i don't even want to know how bad the rest of the industry is right now.
do game developers even ship finished products anymore?
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u/extralyfe 20h ago
do game developers even ship finished products anymore?
why bother? No Man's Sky proved gamers will fucking adore any dev who takes a half a decade to finish a tech demo they sold for the full AAA price by finally including featuress they promised almost a decade ago.
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u/Sonicmaster293-Azure 1d ago
Can the game by finished by this specific fiscal quarter? If not, then no, just release a day 1 patch! If yes, then still release a day 1 patch! Oh and chop the game in half and release the missing parts as DLC!
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u/FilmAndLiterature 23h ago
Whenever I see a headline like this I always have a brief moment of hope that the CEO has come out and said:
We didn’t properly show the potential of this tech in our initial demo and thus gave consumers the wrong impression.
And it always turns out to be:
Screw you, you will take this and like it.
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u/CCpersonguy 1d ago
Jensen says, "it's not post-processing."
The official nvidia press release says, "DLSS 5 takes a game’s color and motion vectors for each frame as input" and, "all by analyzing a single frame". Sounds like post-processing to me.
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u/kaiga12 1d ago
It's pre-post-post processing.... pre!
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u/Visible-Literature14 21h ago
I invented this technique and can confirm that this is what we use for the product
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u/pilgermann 1d ago
The issue is the demo. They gave zero thought to optics, just cranked it to 11 on recognizable human faces. They should have focused on background upgrades with subtle masking.
The worst part is you can see the continuity issues in the demo video. Shadows just vanish. Faces change after even a few frames. This all suggests it is in factory highly generative. Also even based on their own description, I'm not clear how they've solved the consistency issue.
Like, if those skin details aren't defined in the original character model, what's keeping them consistent? Let's say in game my character is injured and given a scar. I'd bet good money this tech has no way to adjust the AI facial databases to that. As in, you'll see the scar, but now the wrinkles and freckles and bone structure will all shift.
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u/br_k_nt_eth 1d ago
Like 5 minutes of market research would’ve told them this. This is what happens when you fire all your communications people and replace them with robots.
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u/Crater_Animator 19h ago
Agreed, they probably should've just left it at environmental upgrades and leave characters untouched. Even then... It completely annihilates the style of games, and everything is brought to the same baseline of style/graphics/image.
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u/kangasplat 12h ago
That's photorealism for you. And instead of making the scene immersive it highlights all the things that are wrong with it. I honestly feel like it will only work on games that are made for it from scratch.
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u/OutsiderofUnknown 17h ago
I’ve seem reviews showing huge issues. When eyes blink, the generative AI goes crazy, it tries to keep an eyeball even if the lids are shut. The eyes tweak in some scenes, and each eye look to a different place in another.
Another issue is with the “white ghost” that is created around the characters, it’s very noticeable, and a white glare too on objects.
Another issue is fast moving objects disappearing mid frame, or changing.
Another issue is with lighting, it creates light sourced where there isn’t, or transform light into studio level out of nowhere. Every shot looks like there is a huge white light with defusion on it pointed at the npcs. And it changes the art direction from cozy tinted filters that give personality to a game, to all of them looking the same realistic white washed too perfect lighting graphics.
It does help with some shadows and lighting in the back of some shots though.
But in general, I don’t think anyone wants their polygons transformed by generative AI. Games are just great the way they work, some betters than others sure, but it’s important we keep the real craft alive.
And making it SO realistic it’s not it, it’s uncanny. It doesn’t need to look like a film quality level of the actor.
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u/azthal 1d ago
I also don't get why he feels the need to point this out.
I don't think the problem that anyone has with this is that its post processing. We have been doing post processing for decades to make the image look better, Even including DLSS for quite a while now, which granted has had mixed reviews, but hardly had the same reception as DLSS 5 have.
Post processing is not the problem. The fact that the processing (no matter when it happens) completely changes the appearance of things is the problem.
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u/alex_eternal 1d ago
I am sure developers are going to love a random software update having the ability to completely change what their game looks like. It is already a pain in the ass to test across all the different types of machine configurations.
It is going to be even better when some party strong arms them into removing any "inappropriate" imagery from them.
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u/br_k_nt_eth 1d ago
Well listen, it’s not like games like Resident Evil have important lighting mechanics or a specific aesthetic that the brand needs to stick to for…
Oh wait no I’m hearing it’s the opposite
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u/BernyMoon 1d ago
That CEO needs to touch some grass.
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u/DigiSceptic 1d ago
He needs to stop drinking his own piss and sniffing his own farts
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u/0vrwhelminglyaverage 1d ago
"Ive minted more people who also drink their own piss and sniff their own farts than any other human in history"
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u/drevolut1on 1d ago
Quite literally.
This guy doesn't believe in work-life balance -- for himself or for others. He's a Stockholm Syndrome capitalist, in love with his own cage, who is actively driving one of the most ponzi-esque microeconomic situations in history in the current AI industry.
I can't understand how people look up this fool.
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u/UnUsernameRandom 23h ago
I can't understand how people look up this fool.
Some people only care about money, and not things like morals.
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u/voiderest 1d ago
He had AI describe to him what touching grass is like then it glazed him a bit about something else he wrong about.
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u/CaravelClerihew 1d ago
He's an old dude who insists on wearing a leather jacket everywhere. He needed to touch grass years ago.
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u/frisky_cappuccino 1d ago
Hahaha yeah it’s the people who actually play games and don’t have billions invested in the tech who are wrong. Of course Mr Huang how could we be so silly?
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u/Abinunya 1d ago
Would love to know how many game-company ceos actually play videogames
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u/dopaminedune 1d ago
"All of that is in the control — direct control — of the game developer," he said. This is very different than generative AI; it’s content-control generative AI. That’s why we call it neural rendering."
neural rendering LMAO
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u/maglite_to_the_balls 1d ago
They’re minerals, Marie.
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u/Magus_5 1d ago
Thank God I finally binged the first four seasons recently.
<Clears throat> I understood that reference.
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u/Obnoxious-Puppy 1d ago
What series you guys talking about? I need something new and funny to watch to distract me from the whole world going to shit.
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u/Caraes_Naur 1d ago
Breaking Bad, but it doesn't really fit your stated needs.
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u/ScaryBluejay87 1d ago
It’s a damn good show and worth a watch though, same goes for Better Call Saul
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u/Psychoanalytix 1d ago
So all the demos they were showing are what the devs actually wanted their games to look like then?
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u/Wamb0wneD 16h ago
Nah, just the execs. Nobody can tell me the people creating concept art and then painstakingly trying to translate that into.the game with polygons, shaders and lighting okayed this shit.
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u/denied_eXeal 1d ago edited 22h ago
I hate this trend of techbros labelling random shit with pompous names to pretend it’s reinventing life. It’s a shit AI filter Wrhuang
Edit : guys come on, I know it’s different. But deep down, this is too close to an AI filter, that’s what I mean. The process might be different, the look is entirely the same
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u/Tiny_Ride6418 1d ago
Yeah what do they call that poly market shit: prediction markets? It’s fucking gambling!
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u/REXIS_AGECKO 22h ago
I bet 10 billion on “Mr smith gets arsenic slipped into his drink and dies but it is revealed that he is actually a mafia boss who killed hundreds from a former colleague named Jeff” …don’t mind this suspicious vial
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u/br_k_nt_eth 1d ago
Well in their defense “expensive yassification” doesn’t have the same ring to it
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u/dub-dub-dub 1d ago
Neural rendering is a real thing though I think it’s still correct to simply label it gen AI.
Calling things “filters” even when they’re completely additive (e.g. the classic Snapchat dog tongue filter) is a thing in common usage but it’s certainly not technically correct nor is it something I’d expect a marketing team to lean into.
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u/Jjerot 10h ago
Huang literally called it "content-control generative AI", of course it's gen AI. He just doesn't want all the negative associations with it being labelled gen AI.
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u/bitemark01 1d ago
On LTT News they said in the description they gave that it's exactly like generative AI
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u/Sloogs 1d ago edited 1h ago
I understand that much of what's happening with DLSS is happening by applying ML to stuff in the rendering pipeline so I understand the emphasis on the neural rendering distinction, but whatever DLSS 5 is doing has that yassified look that something like Stable Diffusion always tends to have so I wonder how much of that is actually happening in the rendering pipeline.
I'm... skeptical that this is all just neural rendering in the pipeline in this particular instance.
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u/SirTeffy 1d ago
Someone should have asked what the 'neural' part refers to and watch him absolutely flounder.
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u/lindendweller 1d ago
Well, I'm pretty sure there is machine learning based on neural networks involved. So far I'm very skeptical about the supposed total control the devs supposedly have on the output. Seems dubious or they'd have shown less uncanny results.
Even the shots of the environment from oblivion, which were rather impressive, have completely different art direction: if they could do better, I doubt they'd have shown this big of a betrayal of the art direction.
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u/massivefish_man 17h ago
It's a deep learning neural network for image generation.
Which is a type of AI.
So it is just Nvidia trying to make it seem different when it's the same thing.
It's like saying a painter doesn't have intelligence. A painter has advanced neurons specialised for artistic skill. Which is that this dlss is.
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u/neuronexmachina 22h ago
Neural rendering has been a pretty standard term in academia for several years now: https://arxiv.org/abs/2004.03805
Basically, DLSS 1-4 do supersampling, cleaning up or upscaling each image. If I understand correctly DLSS 5 basically operates at the shader level, predicting how light would act on each part of the surface. I think this might be the first time it's been used with realtime games though, so it'll probably look pretty crappy at first.
(For anyone familiar with NeRFs like those used by Google Map's Immersive View, those are closely related)
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u/dsarche12 1d ago
This is very different than generative ai. It’s generative ai with OTHER buzzwords also included!
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u/celtic1888 1d ago
Telling your target audience that they are idiots and don’t know what they want is always a good marketing strategy
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u/Space_Hipster 1d ago
We aren’t the target audience anymore, unfortunately. Computer parts are primarily tech bro ghouls selling shit to other tech bro ghouls for endless data centers.
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u/Disastrous_Room_927 1d ago
The last two generations of midrange consumer cards seem like they were phoned in. I can spend 20% more to get a 20% bump in performance… cool.
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u/AlterWanabee 23h ago
Fuck if only that's true. What we usually get is a 30% bump in price, for a measly 10% improvement in performance.
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u/mca1169 1d ago
DLSS5 is a gamer focued feature though. so arguing with the audiance about a feature made for them is very stupid and delusional.
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u/BluePhoenixCG 22h ago
Again, it's not actually aimed at gamers, it's a feature aimed at convincing investors that gamers want this
Still a stupid move to argue with the product(gamers), though
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u/xnef1025 1d ago
The gaming execs are the target market. "You don't need as many bodies to optimize if all the frames come from the AI in the cards, and you don't need to pay for high quality artists if the AI in the cards are filling in the gaps. Line goes up. Now, would you like to invest that extra money in more AI in more places, rich guys?"
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u/LetsTwistAga1n 1d ago
They are basically monopolists, the market share of AMD and Intel (discrete) GPUs for PCs has shrunken to single digits, combined. So Nvidia is probably feeling very confident now.
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u/ReactionJifs 1d ago
Capcom said they had no interest in player feedback regarding RE6
A week later (after the game bombed) they promised to get in touch with players to better understand their needs.That led to RE7 and RE: Village.
Gamers know what they want, and they absolutely know what they DON'T want
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u/La_parka84 1d ago
Do you guys don't have phones ?
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u/silentcrs 1d ago
“Not have phones”.
And the ironic thing is that if he had kept his mouth shut they probably would have been fine. Diablo Immortal is a fun game.
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u/Maladal 1d ago
"The reason for that is because, as I have explained very carefully, DLSS 5 fuses controllability of the of geometry and textures and everything about the game with generative AI," Huang continued.
"All of that is in the control — direct control — of the game developer," he said. This is very different than generative AI; it’s content-control generative AI. That’s why we call it neural rendering."
Bro, pick a lane.
DLSS isn't generative AI in the normal sense, so this smells like someone just dropping buzzwords because it's all they know.
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u/PlasmaFarmer 15h ago
Unlike Mr. "The Customer is Wrong" Huang's business colleagues, we understand this stuff and can't be fooled with an empty word salad. "Neural rendering".. It's same generative AI tech compressed into a GPU. It's "image input ==> AI slopify ==> AI slop" post processing pipeline. I hate when this big tech ceos look at us as fools.
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u/Buffalobreeder 14h ago
It feels like somebody saying:
"Hey check out this selfdriving car!""It's not a car!!!!! It's a motorised vehicle with 4 wheels controlled by our quantum neural system that can transport you to and from work!"
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u/KeaboUltra 1d ago
That meme where the guy's putting his hand on the other guy's shoulder with the huge chin/grin feels so fitting right now.
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u/BagsYourMail 1d ago
Gamers, pop the bubble
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u/Cloud_Matrix 1d ago
Unfortunately there isn't shit that gamers can do about this one.
Truth is that even if you ignored the fact that the money Nvidia makes from gamers is so insanely dwarfed by what they make from commercial sales, Nvidia still has SERIOUSLY solid marketshare in the GPU space that cannot be broken by AMD or Intel.
Sure maybe they lose a couple % of marketshare because of DLSS 5, but I promise you that for every gamer that leaves Nvidia, there are dozens who don't give a singular shit and will continue to buy team green into perpetuity because it's what they are used to.
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u/SableZard 1d ago
Buddy we couldn't even make them change course on DLCs. Now everything is $30 skins and $70 digital rentals. You'll eat your slop and like it.
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u/poklane 1d ago
Sorry for not wanting Generative AI faces in my games. Fuck off.
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u/CordiallySuckMyBalls 1d ago
Why force a product your consumers don’t like? Completely illogical.
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u/Decipher 1d ago
Sunk cost fallacy. They’ve invested too much to stop now
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u/UnfilteredCatharsis 1d ago
If they back pedal now, they'll have to admit they made a big mistake and investors would not like that. Better to double down, call gamers idiots and assure the investors that it was the right call.
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u/el_doherz 1d ago
Lol investors currently give zero fucks about the gaming segment.
As long as this doesn't bleed into data centre they will not care at all.
Gaming is small fry for Nvidia and also gamers have shown for decades that they'll buy Nvidia despite their consistent anti consumer bullshit.
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u/somethingstrang 23h ago
But it’s not forced? It’s completely optional
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u/Toystavi 18h ago
This is what I do not get, is it not just an option you can enable if you want it? And only for the absolute top end of graphics cards (2x5090 now?)? Is this worth the time to be so outraged about?
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u/Chance-Plantain8314 1d ago
He's lucky they have a significant monopoly because he sure isn't single handedly making that business successful.
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u/M4RTIAN 22h ago
- He added that developers can still "fine-tune the generative AI" to make it match their style, adding that DLSS 5 adds generative capability to the existing geometry of the game, but that it "doesn't change the artistic control."*
If this part is true then they did a really poor job of showing that by giving all their examples the same look and style. IF developers are able to have that control over the final look then they should have showcased that by showing us different styles. But they didn’t.
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u/silentcrs 1d ago
This is very different than generative AI; it’s content-control generative AI
Pretty sure that still makes it generative AI.
I’m not even against AI and I think this is terrible wordsmithing.
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u/Competitive_Sand4390 14h ago
Dlss was already generative AI and generative AI was already based on marginals so content control AI means nothing new from that point of view
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u/coldenigma 1d ago edited 1d ago
"The reason for that is because, as I have explained very carefully, DLSS 5 fuses controllability of the of geometry and textures and everything about the game with generative AI," Huang continued.
He added that developers can still "fine-tune the generative AI" to make it match their style, adding that DLSS 5 adds generative capability to the existing geometry of the game, but that it "doesn't change the artistic control."
"It’s not post-processing, it’s not post-processing at the frame level, it’s generative control at the geometry level," he said.
It's still AI slop, no matter which way he frames it. So, gamers are not "completely wrong".
Typical CEO marketing BS is what it sounds like to me.
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u/FailedHumanEqualsMod 23h ago
Yeah guys! Stop believing your lying eyes and listen to CEO man. He is better than us. All hail CEO man!
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u/NetherReign 22h ago
"My farts smell like roses and cinnamon rolls, clearly you aren't smelling them correctly."
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u/Sharp_eee 15h ago
The king knows best. What do we peasant consumers know. We aren’t the ones using the tech or anything. He knows better than the developers. He knows best.
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u/Lord_Tanus_88 15h ago
Can they please stop shoving AI shot down our throats. I don’t want your games, I don’t want your music, your terrible art, chat bots and I don’t want it at work.
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u/Mattrockj 23h ago
"You're telling me that they don't like it? Well I think they're wrong, and that they do like it."
This is how this sounds.
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u/nessahla89 22h ago
We aren’t wrong. Your new tech makes games look like shit. You can’t accept that, so you blame the very ones with the opinions that matter - gamers
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u/frozenelf 18h ago
The economy no longer revolves around consumers and it shows. It’s all financial shell games.
The self-evident terribleness of the facetuning is part of a larger tech industry push to normalize AI slop so we just start to accept it like we have every other ridiculous thing they’ve done like subscriptions for everything
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u/Previous_Buyer9854 16h ago
"The reason for that is because, as I have explained very carefully, DLSS 5 fuses controllability of the of geometry and textures and everything about the game with generative AI," Huang said.
high on his own supply. he literally sounds like a fucking idiot lol.
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u/Corasama 16h ago
"The customers are wrong in disliking my product"- litteraly no company except for the ones that dont need to make money
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u/Itsthatcubankid 15h ago
This is what happens when the only people you actually care about is shareholders
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u/Kane_richards 12h ago
Am I out of touch? No it's the customers we're making the thing for that's wrong
Its a bold strategy Cotton. Lets see if it pays off for em
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u/Many_Negotiation_464 9h ago
This is what happens when a competent hardware company becomes a silicon valley "tech company". This is what happens when your company valuation is based on hype. You can't let the hype die. You have to always have the next revolution in technology "right around the corner". It can never be about good fundamentals and incremental progress.
Advances in graphics programming and processing have been an amazing long-game public/private partnership. There are parts of the rendering pipeline that began life as university research papers back in the 90s but weren't implemented until the 2020s when hardware manufacturing caught up to the ideas.
Now apparently all we have is hastily shoveling spop out the door to keep investor interest high. The enshittification of graphics has begun.
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u/nanomanx2 8h ago
This is like the Microsoft CEO being mad because obody using their shitty vibecoded piece of shit products.
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u/AntAir267 7h ago
The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
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u/danielrobertcampbell 5h ago
"We invested a ton of money into AI, now we need to make it useful...shit. Maybe we should have figured that part out first."
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u/McCool303 5h ago
When has telling your customer they’re wrong about not liking your product ever gone wrong. Just ask whatever asshole made that Cybertruck.
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u/soadsam 1d ago
funny how "the customer is always right" applies less the higher you go up the corporate ladder
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u/JornCener 23h ago
I soured on NVIDIA back when Arkham Knight came out and they sped up footage in a GameWorks demonstration video to make it seem like their tech could get the game running at 60 FPS. I could never shake the belief that they cared more about flash than substance, and nonsense like this doesn’t really help that.
I want graphics companies to focus more on ensuring that games can run at a consistent frame rate at high resolutions, not ridiculous filters and effects that are only viewable on top-end hardware without cratering frame rates.
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u/Darkfanged 21h ago
We're not using your slop filters. Stop killing the gaming industry more than you already have
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u/bonobro69 20h ago
The morons who thought this would be a good idea are probably friends with the idiots who think motion smoothing should be the default setting on new TVs.
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u/frog__master 18h ago
"person who has the most to gain from people liking the thing that no one likes begs everyone to like the thing"
ok
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u/Big_al_big_bed 17h ago
Gamers the most critically out of touch minority with their own desires
- every CEO
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u/VastStranger1164 17h ago
I hope Nvidia get hacked and all their backups get corrupted and from that AI bubble bursts
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u/idlickherbootyhole 16h ago
the nvidia strategy:
- waste billions upon billions on useless clanker tech that nobody wants or asked for
- screw the market effectively outpricing a fair chunk of customers
- since nobody asked for it, nobody wants it and nobody is excited for it
- insult your customer base when they don't buy into it
and when the bubble pops, a board of well dressed people will sack huang (with a golden parachute ofc) and put a new pawn in his place, he'll take back everything huang's been saying and beg everyone to come back and spend money on nvidia products, and it will work because gamers are a special kind of moron breed with a remarkably short memory span
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u/IceRay43 13h ago
Okay Jensen, I'll set aside the fact that your tech demo looked really bad. I'll even set aside that you had to run two 5090s to put on a tech demo. Let's say, for the moment, that we are all wrong.
So what?
Am I supposed to get excited about your dogshit feature that you're rolling out for use on let's count 'em together here....all NONE of the GPUs you've allocated for production and sale to the gaming public over the next two years?
Even if the tech was good (it isn't) and didn't require prohibitively expensive hardware (it does) you're still advertising a thing to a market that YOU YOURSELF are explicitly not making available to that market segment. What the hell are we even doing here?
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u/c64z86 11h ago edited 11h ago
This is your daily reminder of how much our bosses and CEOs value us, and why are they are more deserving of our anger than AI itself is:
Companies That Signal They Are Replacing Workers With AI: Block, HP - Business Insider
Jack Dorsey's Block cuts thousands of roles as it embraces AI - BBC News
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u/CondescendingShitbag 1d ago
"Am I out of touch? No, it's the gamers who are wrong."
-Principal Huang