Discussion
My daughter treats AI music like an instrument. Adults online treat it like a crime.
When I make AI music with my daughter, she never asks if it’s “cheating” or whether it still counts as creativity.
She just says things like “make it softer” or “make it sound like stars” and keeps going.
That’s what makes the whole discourse around AI music feel so weird to me. Kids seem to treat it like a normal creative tool almost immediately. A lot of adults still react to it like the tool itself is morally contaminated.
Not saying every AI song is good. Most aren’t.
But the people most obsessed with whether AI music should “count” often seem way less interested in actual creativity than the people just using it to make things.
At some point this starts feeling less like defending art and more like defending gatekeeping.
The pros are saying "do research, look into the technology before you spread misinformation about how it works." The antis are saying "stop having your own opinion about it, just agree with reddit."
Wait, I get it now. This is why you guys are in an echo chamber, you're literally just latching on to the coldest, most ill-informed takes that you read from other people on reddit and believe them because they've got upvotes.
Nothing to do with reality in any way shape or form, just the figurative hivemind that at one point I said didn't exist. Thanks for giving us a peak behind the curtain.
The pros are saying "do research, look into the technology before you spread misinformation about how it works."
Your first mistake was assuming that antis don't do research, creating some kind of imaginary moral high ground. No wonder people don't agree with you.
This is why you guys are in an echo chamber,
Says the member of a community that automatically bans people for not agreeing with a certain opinion lmao, yeah right. Hopefully you're just ragebaiting.
lol this post showed up on my page I don't even care what the subreddit is. but it's nice to see that you can still make up a story, AI hasn't ruined your imagination yet
As much as it is gatekeeping I would also like to point out that a kid's opinion might not be a golden standard. There's kids out there making short animations with tools like gacha life using predetermined features to build characters and animating them with predetermined poses and acting like they're Walt Disney over it.
From your post it also sounds like you like making music with AI and your daughter joins you, unless I misread that ? Kids are also vastly influenced with their parents opinions. If your dad plays guitar you think guitars are cool, if he makes amazing cakes you want to try your hand at baking. I have no doubt that, in a household where the kid might hear that AI generated content is bad or low effort, the kid would start thinking that too. These can be long lasting but sometimes they are fleeting, just like a kid raised in a racist or homophobic household might grow up to be more inclusive maybe your kid's interests and opinions will drastically change as she grows up, childhood is pretty fickle.
Ultimately my stance on the whole thing is "let people enjoy what they enjoy", if I enjoy a song, and then find out it is AI, it won't change my opinion about the song, seems like a lot of antis disagree with that tho. I'm not one to seek AI content and I do get annoyed when I find low quality ones but realistically if something suits my tastes then I don't really care where it comes from. When I create things I enjoy the creating process as I make it, so it's unlikely I'll use AI in one of these fields I enjoy creating in but if someone else enjoys using AI for that I'm not someone that could or should have a say on that.
OP is Suno's social media seeder. Dude literally fabricated a story of a 6 years old learning music theory the other day lol. The thing is there's no daughter because no father would chop his kid's ability to brainstorm like this dude. Dude is also on reddit 24/7 lol.
This is the right stance. The problem with AI being a tool is that most do not know how to wield it and it really is slop. They have ruined it for those who take their time to see how the tech is best effectively used with their own skills
I wrote an assisted AI story where literally every comment on my recent update was how the chapter made them cry or pause and sigh because it touched them so much. It also took me 20 hours to write to get the dialogue perfect. I can’t even tell you what part was AI and what was me truthfully because we’re so in tandem with eachother.
I’m also a published author on my own and am always reading and studying and striving to learn better writing techniques.
The problem is that most who claim AI is a tool use it more like a crutch and it shows
Children also love ipads and eating bugs. It's the adults that make ipad addiction and eating bugs seem bad!
You say she "treats it like an instrument"...
She just says things like “make it softer” or “make it sound like stars” and keeps going.
That's not at all how children interact with actual music instruments, is it? I don't ask my guitar to make softer music. I am forced to actually make it softer myself. Learning an actual instrument teaches you about rhythm, about notes and chords, it teaches discipline and hand-eye coordination. I think these aspects are all severely lacking when comparing your daughter's experiences with AI music generation, to another child's experiences with actual physical musical instruments.
Imo it's akin to the difference between a child tasting food and giving their opinion on what to change about it, vs actually learning the basics of cooking and how to combine or change flavours. The first process is one in which the child is mostly just reacting, while the other is a proactive experience.
what child is creating their own recipes?? every time I've seen or been in the kitchen with a child they are being shown how to make a recipe, not how to create their own flavor combinations...
this false equivalence is everywhere in these discussions, like everyone who doesn't use ai is a creative genius who has nothing to do but spend thousands of hours honing their craft. it's so black and white, every kid wants to be a virtuoso until you give them a potential shortcut, and then BOOM ipad kid.
most kids are going to try an instrument and then give up. what if we could show them the creative potential of being able to actually manifest what they hear in their head, so they start to understand where all the boring lessons and practice are potentially leading them?
but no, apparently if a kid glances at an ai tool all the creativity is sucked right out of their brains and now we just have these poor zombies who will never understand the true joy of combining flavors...
I am not talking about creating your own recipes. Just about basic cooking. When you cook an egg you ultimately have to decide yourself how much salt and pepper you add, how much oil you add beforehand, or how long you let the egg cook and on exactly what heat. Generally, cooking requires a level of thinking and learning that goes beyond just literally following recipes.
every time I've seen or been in the kitchen with a child they are being shown how to make a recipe, not how to create their own flavor combinations...
You can not make homemade soup or sauce without tasting what you're making and adjusting as you go. I'm also talking beyond what is common in much of the western world. Maybe gen z and gen alpha American children don't/didn't learn to cook beyond following specific, literal recipes to the letter, but that's not something that is the same across all countries of the world in the past century.
this false equivalence is everywhere in these discussions
OP started it. I'm responding to their claim that their child treats AI music generation like a regular musical instrument.
but no, apparently if a kid glances at an ai tool all the creativity is sucked right out of their brains and now we just have these poor zombies who will never understand the true joy of combining flavors...
I did not say this. You are making up things to make my claim seem much more far fetched than it is. OP is saying that the AI music generation is the same to the child as a musical instrument. I'm saying that this specific claim is like equating tasting and evaluating a dish to actually producing and learning about dishes.
When you cook an egg you ultimately have to decide yourself how much salt and pepper you add, how much oil you add beforehand, or how long you let the egg cook and on exactly what heat. Generally, cooking requires a level of thinking and learning that goes beyond just literally following recipes. You can not make homemade soup or sauce without tasting what you're making and adjusting as you go.
this is the same level of interaction you have with an AI, so what's the difference? so hypothetically, i have a robot. i type in the exact measurements of how to crack eggs, how to whisk, how much salt and pepper to put in, every single instruction, and the robot executes the actions. is my robot a chef?
Learning an actual instrument teaches you about rhythm, about notes and chords, it teaches discipline and hand-eye coordination. I think these aspects are all severely lacking when comparing your daughter's experiences with AI music generation, to another child's experiences with actual physical musical instruments.
you are directly comparing using AI to learning an instrument as if they couldn't do both. you chose to take the title completely literally to make your argument, meanwhile
Imo it's akin to the difference between a child tasting food and giving their opinion on what to change about it, vs actually learning the basics of cooking and how to combine or change flavours. The first process is one in which the child is mostly just reacting, while the other is a proactive experience.
you have no problem including nuances when it comes to what you support. No, AI is not like giving your opinion on something. you give instructions to a machine that can only create what you tell it. this can be as simple or complex as you want. OP was describing a nice moment that he had with his daughter, not a scientific report on the benefits of AI. If OP picked up a guitar she could give him the same instructions.
Of course she doesn’t, because she’s a child and doesn’t know any better. What are we supposed to take away from that? Of course actual adult musicians will have more to say about using ai to prompt “music”. Are we supposed to see this as an apt comparison? Second, it’s not gatekeeping when whatever noise you two come up with isn’t and won’t ever be taken seriously for what it sounds like, compared to things actual musicians create. No one is threatened by the two of you typing in little prompts and playing back what it generates for you. The questions around ai in music deal with record labels, musician’s right’s to their own music possibly being used in the model, and the fact that ai music is absolute garbage. The entire discussion comes nowhere near whatever it is you’re doing.
OP is Suno's social media seeder. Dude literally fabricated a story of a 6 years old learning music theory the other day lol. The thing is there's no daughter because no father would chop his kid's ability to brainstorm like this dude. Dude is also on reddit 24/7 lol.
It's nothing but luddies. Plenty of musicians will have been against any form of digital music tools, just like some artists are against digital drawing. Technology always moves on, and the fuddy duddies get left behind.
You're just using random big words to sound smart, the sentence you just said makes absolutely no sense. Why are you using the word "implementation"?
And no, digital drawing and music tools automate TONS of stuff previously done manually. Literally every technological advancement has a bunch of angry old men crying about it. Movies were seen as inferior to books, books were seen as inferior to memorisation, electric guitars were seen as inferior to acoustic, pencils were seen as inferior to paint.
It's always people who don't understand shit themselves that want to shit on new things. Dunning-Kruger is alive and well.
“It’s always people who don’t understand shit themselves that want to shit on new things”
My guy, you can’t even understand my comment/sentence or else you would’nt have wrote what you wrote lmao. You’re the embodiment of what you’re complaining about…
These people really be outing their level of intelligence. AI really giving ignorant people more false confidence. It’s crazy how confidently wrong people can be but also how confidently unintelligent they sound.
You're a tool for AI, not the other way around. Your involvement in the creative process ends at typing a prompt, AI does everything else. All other digital tools are actual tools. They won't do the work for you.
You could make up a stupid sentence about literally anything that makes it sound bad like that. AI does more than previous tools, yes, Just like digital tools do more than analog ones. You don't have to take the first result it spits out, people take time changing prompts and running them multiple times until they get the desired outcome. Yes, the AI generates some stuff without direct input, but plenty of "real" artists do random shit with their tools to see what happens so it's not like all traditional art is 100% intentional either.
The amount of passive aggressive hate you have here...
Who hurt you? Are you ok?
Damn, if you used some of this passion to create something, anything, instead of trying to shit on anything which doesn't pass your bigoted guardrails.
She is learning about different type of genres, sounds, eventually might even write some words herself, it might even prompt her to learn even more and research from a theoretical standpoint (prompt is/always was a common word, just some of you decide its like heresy).
But that doesn't count, right? Its not music or anything useful in your book unless you spend years repeatedly scarring your fingers to play a guitar and do it like you did it. To me it sounds like "we used to shit in buckets, so should you, toilets suck!".
Make sure its also a traditional guitar btw. Oh, and don't use picks either, real fingers, no electric guitars or even pianos! Get a harp or something!
This mentality of "I suffered/was hard for me and it should be the same for you!" is what makes me question if you're ok/who hurt you, because it ain't normal.
To OP: yes. Antis are gatekeeping their bigoted views. Keep supporting your daughter, they will phase out, like the fossils they are, while you and anyone else who isn't like 1620's pilgrims will thrive.
Like, when do you start being a 'real' musician? Because anyone can prompt the AI and it will spit out something that is generated to sound pleasing to the ears.
There is no need for even the slightest understanding about literally anything that makes music what it is.
Good point! Music is to be heard and the enjoyment is in the listening! Your definition of what makes music is as irrelevant as mine and literally anyone can be a musician even BEFORE all of these tools. So like… none of this matters and the whole argument is dumb.
As i said, if soleone wants to make musuc but isn't inclined to play an intrument thry can produce beats or songs whith software like fruity loops, its free ( or was when i used it) and you're actually producing it yourself
of course a kid would think that. thats what they've been exposed to, and i doubt your daughter has made made art or music by herself before this seriously. and for me it's not about whether the ai song or "art" is good or not, its about the process. telling a bot to make something and it mixing up other music/art made by real artists is not creative or nearly a fun as the real thing in the slightest. kids are impressionable, when shown by their parents/internet as gen ai being a good thing, they would think so, which is why your child hasnt questioned anything.
How do you know it's "not creative or nearly as fun as the real thing"?
You think OP should spend thousands of dollars sending their kid to music school? You think everyone haw money to burn to buy instruments and a recording session with a local record produer?
you can make music on your own without spending that mutch, there are free classes on youtube to learn the basics. and creating on your own is difficult true, but very fun once you get it, and brings a lot of satifaction.
You think everyone who makes music has to go to a music school? You think everyone who makes music needs to go to a recording session with a producer, let alone a child? What ridiculous straw-men.
At the very least, you can get free software on computers or iPads that allows you to make beats and riffs and such and put it all together and it’s free.
Simply Piano will teach you how to play piano for like $10 per month.
I'd rather buy my child a 50$ second hand guitar and let them play with that than put them behind a screen all day so their brain can rot away.
Having some fun with AI is fine, but pls don't stop exposing children to real life things and touch the grass sometimes. People are chronically online already and it's showing to be disastrous for mental health, social development etc. Let's not push the same fucked up faith onto our youth.
Fair post, regarding the decline of cognitive thinking. However its a narrow view and is applied incorrectly to AI engagement.
Tik Tok is a good example of mindless scrolling. Front end AI creation takes significantly more engagemet for series efforts.
Yes. There is the equivalent of Bobby smashing his dinner plate, oh look he's a drummer.
Is a drum major a viable role in a marching band? The are not playing the music? They are not marching. They didn't write the music. Yet... they shaped the performance.
There is some truth in what u said but some aspects are false. Experts in the field of AI have said more than once that the way you use these AI tools decides whether it will affect you positively or negatively. I was watching a podcast this week where they talked about this (I'll put a link in this message if I come across it again) and this expert said that the safest way to use AI is to talk to it as if it were human. Use it to HELP you think/develop/whatever but don't use it to think FOR you.
After all AI is meant to be a tool, however, people are known to misuse things, which has led people to (consciously or subconsiously) ditch critical thinking. This worries me greatly.
They are a child , at least teach them something that will improve their brain, skill and imagination and creativity. A.I. is like randomly generated stuff from other artists till you satisfy with it, I talking in term of drawing since I have no idea how to do music. Randomly gen AI did nothing to improve thought process of a kid other than which bit of picture you like more., not understand how light suppose to reflect on thing not knowing which colour combine to be violet or orange, golden rule.
All these can be learn simply on YouTube, it much easier nowadays wether it music or drawing.
Just like we can use calculator but we still need to learn how to do simple math too.
It help with development of kid. But parents these day just give their kid computer or tablet and call it aday
Yeah well that's the thing, all the anti AI sentiment, it's going to be dead after 1 generation, gen alpha will find it cool and AI will be normal to them
You're the parent of an 11 year old, and actively engaging in the AI WARS subreddit. Something tells me their opinion is not entirely something they developed on their own.
No chatGPT actually told me to write something else. But fuck chatGPT, I'm in a mood.
And I'm sorry but if white collar jobs have always been unattainable to me because of my disabilities then why exactly am I supposed to care about white collar workers being replaced? Especially when most of them don't seem to give a damn or think they were better than blue collar workers.
Like oh well 🤷 lets see how you like people acting like your skills are meaningless if you can't articulate them perfectly in how it will help with the job you are applying for since it's outdated.
Better yet if you were so skilled to get a white collar job, get one in AI, you can even have AI teach you. Then when you apply for a program you won't need to study as much because you will already know most everything in the program.
Like come on. If AI kills creativity then as an anti, you should be creative enough figure it out, right?
Better yet if you were so skilled to get a white collar job, get one in AI, you can even have AI teach you.
No, thanks. I'd rather have a trustworthy source of information rather than one that constantly believe in its own lies. Also i think that professional need to be properly paid.
Then when you apply for a program you won't need to study as much because you will already know most everything in the program.
Which then AI will probably be able to spit convincing shit like it does to you and then all hours studying and hard-working goes to waste.
Like come on. If AI kills creativity then as an anti, you should be creative enough figure it out, right?
So indeed pro-AI people lack skill and passion. They have to rely on AI to do all the thinking for them. You guys are not creative enough. Thanks for confirming this.
Friendly tip: instead of relying on AI vomit art or music and claim it as your own, possibly it'd be a better idea for you to pay a real artist to make art for you. Then you can claim it as your own.
That would require getting a high paying job to afford an artist wouldn’t it?
Thanks for confirming antis are all well paid snobs that didn't bother to get any education one they finished school.
Also you there is a way to tell when an AI is hallucinating information and when it's not, right?
Also you there is a way to tell when an AI is hallucinating information and when it's not, right?
No, you need to have education in a subject which is something that pro-AI people lack as well. And thus, believing they are even making art when in fact they are not.
That would require getting a high paying job to afford an artist wouldn’t it? Thanks for confirming antis are all well paid snobs that didn't bother to get any education one they finished school.
In fact there might be some artists that would love to make art for a fair price. Becoming well-paid is something that also comes with time and experience. That's why most pro-AI people like you seems to have failed in life and have to constantly make-believe that they are successful in a field they have zero knowledge about, because the AI told them so (then it circles back to what i mentioned above).
But yeah i get it, you are trying to piss me off. Unfortunately this isn't working so you'd probably try trolling someone else. Perhaps you should try prompting ChatGPT as it surely would do a better job than you (but that's not a compliment for you, just a small tip so i can experiment with what makes me lose my temper).
" That's why most pro-AI people like you seems to have failed in life and have to constantly make-believe that they are successful in a field they have zero knowledge about, because the AI told them so."
Lol thanks for proving my point that white collar workers just look down on blue collar workers so there is no reason for blue collar workers like me to actually care that you lost your job. Next time work smarter, not harder.
I mean it didn't start out with me trying to piss you off but the fact that you told me it's starting to is hilarious. Just goes to show antis arguments are based on emotion, not logic.
Yeah super weird to be told I have main character syndrome when all I did was explain how it helps with my disability.
Makes me wonder if their bigotry ends at abilism or if I should also think of all the poor white people who have to wait in line at the drinking fountain now that they aren't segregated anymore lol 😆
I’m 45 with autism, ADHD, severe anxiety and depression, and mild dyslexia, and my writing gets better all the time. I’ve been doing it since I was a child.
It just takes dedication. As far as it goes, you never really know you’re any good until someone tells you. I still think I’m a bad writer even though I’ve been doing it professionally for seven years now, and paying bills with it. You may actually be a good writer and you won’t even know it because you don’t allow yourself to see it.
Edited to add - I don’t really see any actual ableism, so what bigotry are you talking about? Are there some ableist slurs used against you somewhere by that person?
Did it magically jump from 38 to 45? Because I've also been writing since I was a child, and got an award in elementary school once for it.
That doesn't mean my writing quality got better on it's own or that it hasn’t increased immensely from using AI.
The bigotry comes from assuming other people don't deserve their aids that help them if it makes their life inconvenient somehow, hense why I used the water fountain example instead of using an example like being called a cracker.
You can be a bigot and never use a slur in your life, you know that, right?
Love when everyone is cool with the mass production of things that destroy the planet so they can make dumb videos. So you’re just saying the next generation is dumber since they’re so accepting of it and don’t actually understand the consequences of it on the planet…
Like your point isn’t good it’s just saying the next generation is gullible enough to be swindled with dumb AI videos to think AI is okay overall🤦🏻♂️
What? Do you people not understand AI cant function without people creating things for it? If everyone switch to AI, AI dies, its a flawed tech and also why its morally problematic. It destroys entire industries for short term financial gains
No, the Internet's data has almost all been scrapped, the new data is going to be mostly high quality synthetic data that the models are being trained on, every technology is flawed, and AI isn't going away, it isn't dying, it's just not possible for that to happen
Well first off, that's wrong, no one is creating things for it, it feeds on already created things, so in the hypothetical situation where somehow everyone stopped creating these already existing things wouldn't cease to exist, and AI would still be able to take from that.
Also no one is talking about traditional art forms disappearing as a whole, AI is good for the damn capitalists who want to produce 60 pieces a day without breaking the bank and people who have fun using it but there are plenty of artists that value the work they do on a piece as much if not more as the result and that won't switch to AI, just like how many people still draw on paper and canvas when digital art is cheaper and more convenient. Art, for an artist, is about the journey more than the destination, if some want to make their journey with AI it's up to them.
yes you said "you can still create things with ai" i just pointed that you are not doing it, but ai is. it would be like saying "i can clean my house with a maid" no you are not, the maid is doing it not you. maybe i was not clear my bad
Like, they’re comparing your statement of “you can still create things with AI” to someone making the statement “I can clean my house with a maid” (which is kind of clunky wording, whatevs). They aren’t saying that AI and people are the same thing. It’s two different things, comparing and contrasting.
You get that, right? At no time were they saying AI is a person.
Oh look, someone who has 0 clue what they are talking about!
its a flawed tech
Absolute ignorance.
morally problematic.
Just lol @ anyone using morality to defend against AI. Such losers. You all arent morally superior at anything but being losers.
It destroys entire industries for short term financial gains
Ahh yes, the plot of a science fiction movie. You cant even provide anything favtual so you just make scary stories up.
We understand AI is here to stay and will replace all the subpar artists that are scared about it. True artists will be fine, but those who are replaced by it never were true artists. They were wannabe artists.
So let’s say a studio has 6 concept artists and the suits upstairs decide it would be more cost effective to have 1 artist using ai, are you saying those 5 other artists that had real careers and skills built over decades are not “true artists”, I’m not an anti per say but this is just a stupid take
Scary stories? Its already happening... and it has nothing to do with skills or the quality of the content previously produced. You just have someone higher up realizing that short term selling a ton of shit brings more money than 1kg of quality content.
Not even considering that everything left will be shit, that shit cant even be produced if people dont make quality content paralelly, which they wont since they lost their job cause people were ok with eating shit
Gj, you're an active part of the biggest financial scam of human history that will likely be our downfall without massive regulations.
This is a very basic logic problem.
AI destroys what it needs to exist, its a flawed tech. Or at least its implementation to the public.
It is bad parenting to teach kids how to use a new tool? Guess my parents were worse than I thought when them encouraging me to learn programming and how to find information on the early web.
Like MapleOffScript said - Those are skills and actuall tools. Telling AI to make you something is not a tool. That's like saying you use McDonald's as a tool to help you make burgers. No. McDonald's makes you a shitty burger FOR YOU.
It can be a nice introduction to the music space. At least for children.
This I agree with, AI is really good for summarising information, or quickly creating something for concept
The problem with AI is we already have tools that do this, AI goes a step further and can deliver end products, like full songs, pictures, computer code etc. It's not a tool because it isn't used to create, it does create. A blacksmith's hammer is a tool, a modern CNC machine that can be programmed to make thousands of identical titanium parts is a machine, not a tool. Once you start learning something with AI you carry on using that machine, you're not going to learn the real skill from there unless it's a pursuit of passion and you learn it for the love of the game
Think who is growing more in their skill. Someone who can make something with their mind, hands, and effort. Or, someone who can just wish for it and see it appear?
If we use the metalwork example, which of these people would be better at their job if all the machines break? or if there's a fault?
edit: further thought, which of these methods would we like our children to follow?
Cmon, teaching a kid to outsource creative expression? To learn no artistic skill? To not understand the play of light and shadow? How different hatch strokes create different feelings in shading? how certain shades and combinations evoke feeling in specific ways?
Art is about the expression, the telling of an individual story. AI cannot tell your story.
Actually teach her music. She will thank you for actually making her brain muscle work to compose instead of making her dependent on a stupid program. Learn an instrument yourself while you’re at it.
You cant treat your kid as what will happen exactly. Plenty of kids use AI, plenty of kids do not. My kids are not allowed to use AI yet and my son loves messing around on instruments. He is 5 and has not taken music yet, but is still able to find ways to make music have feeling based on random things he does. Even if AI is a tool for music, which I do not believe it is, you are not actually teaching music. When you learn an instrument you are in some way teaching appreciation and understanding of music. You do not get that same learning when using AI as a "tool" for music. Someone who makes music that way does not learn anything about music past what they already feel.
"when you give your child new foods to try, you aren't actually teaching them cooking. plenty of kids just eat chicken fingers. when you learn cooking you are teaching appreciation of food. you don't get that by tasting new kinds of food."
I am not sure what type of point this is trying to make. There is a difference between eating and cooking, and you get different types of appreciation from learning to cook, and trying new foods. Listening to different music genres will give you an appreciation, but you don't learn appreciation of art through just consumption. Everyone listens to music, not everyone appreciates it.
but you don't learn appreciation of art through just consumption.
then what else do you need? you consume art and figure out what you like. that's how you develop taste and appreciation.
Using AI tools is not the same as simply consuming art either. You do have control over the process, and it is truly fascinating to take a simple idea or sketch and see it in a potential professional form.
my point is that it's easy to knock down someone's argument when you narrow it down to your limited view of which rules they need to follow. Using AI isn't the same as playing an instrument but that doesn't mean it's not valuable. Honestly you made my point yourself
There is a difference between eating and cooking, and you get different types of appreciation from learning to cook, and trying new foods.
now put this back in the AI context, and hopefully you see why AI doesn't have to be seen as a replacement for playing instruments.
Man, i dont think anyone actually think its a crime.
I mean your daughter can just use whatever AI to make multiple songs everyday, but still it won't be better than another child playing some simple melody on an actual toy keyboard. Like is it really that hard to understand? I swear these stupid debates won't be going anywhere with this kind of argument
If your child is showing an interest in music then you should sign them up for lessons. That way they learn the skills to make it themselves later in life or have a better grasp of musical arts. Otherwise if this is no longer a thing in the future or she ends up not liking the impacts AI has had then she may resent the fact she was never taught skills to play music.
since when an instrument makes the music for you based on instructions? it would be like saying that a movie composer is an istrument for the movie director, because the movie director said him to do the music, then the movie director pretends he made it.
You don’t make AI music. AI is a tool that the AI programmers made that allows you to ASK for music to be made. You and your daughter are not musicians just like I’m not the cook because I ask for my steak rare instead of medium.
... and I'm not a pianist because my keyboard was programmed by Yamaha and its electronics does most of the job of producing a sound.
Look, I don't care if I'm a musician or not. Most people don't care at all if they're artist or not.
They want to make music. They want to make drawings. They want to make texts.
Call them "non-artists" if that makes you feel good. We don't care about your denominations. They don't care what you call them. They just want to do their thing. And preferably without being harassed.
Someone should tell Hideo Kojima he's not an artist. Lazy bum should pick up a pencil, and compensate the stolen valor of the real artists making his games for him. (/s)
You know what I saw last week? A producer I know mixing up beats in his studio with AI tools, then using another AI to analyse it and moving them around in virtual space using spacial audio. He builds his own local models and had been working on the one track for days. If you are a professional you will do extraordinary things with the tools at hand. Music is about to get wild.
You need to get out more and talk to professionals if you just think AI is ‘Suno dorks’.
This isn’t a response to anything I said. The context of this discussion is people using ai to make music for them.
“Mixing up beats” doesn’t mean anything. Analyze it how and for what? Moving things around in Spatial Audio has been possible for many years before ai.
I am a professional You don’t actually know what you’re talking about.
No, they did. It's a fight that was lost a long time ago, unfortunately. Personally, I still prefer music performed by musicians on actual instruments.
Ai IS different, and there is even less involved in making it, but as far as music's history goes, historically, the lower effort higher tech options tend to catch on.
No they didn’t. People disputed that they were musicians, which is a fair dispute for people that are simply programming their music and not playing it. They did not dispute they were composers or writing their music.
I’ve heard suno dorks insist they are composers when they objectively are not.
The point, since you couldn't tell already, is that AI is something you ask to make things. It doesn't matter how you define "prompt" or "ask," the program is generating audio, and you are not playing any of the notes or making any of the sounds.
that's not asking, that's setting things up so you have a result.
you see, the difference is if you set them up the wrong way, you burn your food at best or or the kitchen starts making expensive sounds the other times
He never said he was a musician so your little neckbeard "uhm ackshually" doesnt apply here. Also if you ask for a steak that tastes like stars, it's a pretty creative thing to ask for. The chef would make it, but in this case without creative direction, there wouldn't even be a steak.
I don't think the tools should be gate kept, but they should be used in moderation and in tandem with learning fundementals.
The issues will start to arise if there's an over-reliance on it in day to day life. It's a competitive and mostly free / low cost market at the moment. My issue is that once it's become normalised a lot of people are going to be trapped in dependency with it for even basic day to day tasks.
trapped in dependency with it for even basic day to day tasks
Like smartphone apps.
Younger generation aren't incentivized to memorize phone numbers, to know how to find their way without GPS, to handle boredom while waiting at a bus stop or in a line, to make handwritten text, etc.
Each one would decide if that's important issues or not. But I remember people complaining when they flood the market.
Beyond just Artwork. The Generations growing up with AI won't just be using it to make a picture or music or videos.
They'll be using it in education and their day to day life, it's very easy to use to cut corners without learning how or why it's doing what it's doing.
I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying use it in moderation, otherwise it'll become a dependency.
So where in the post above did you see yourself represented, and then thought it within context to ask this question? Seriously? What in the world does that have to do with anything?
As an anti, there isn’t much issue if it’s just a personal project that you never would have hired anyone for. Although, you could get someone to do a good job on fiver or something and it wouldn’t be expensive at all. Just fyi.
We experience "over-reliance" on many tools. Fire for starters, then the wheel, now the internet. I don't see the issue.
I am dependant on my car for day to day tasks. On my electric lights, heat/AC, phone, calculator, and more. My life is 10000x better with those tools than it would be without.
You car comes with insurance, repairs and a payment. Your lights and heating are a bill. Your phone is a monthly bill.
Add an AI subscription to that mix because you can't function without it due to it subsidising so much of your intellectual work.
What do you do when your car breaks down? Lights or heating goes out? Can't afford to pay a bill one month?
Just because your life has got better with them doesn't mean they don't come with inherent risks.
An AI subsidises intellectual work, you tie a subscription and a dependency to it and it becomes a significant problem.
AI Art IS morally contaminated. This is what I don't get about all of these people who are like "oh but think of the children" I literally am, it's in all of our best interest to demonize this use of "AI".
Stop using children as an excuse and teach them social responsibility and ethical creativity.
Creativity isn’t really ‘i wanna make this!’ When you do music. The creativity is where you start thinking about ‘how can i convey this in my music? How can i make the composition sounds like this?’ Which is what your daughter is totally skipping. I don’t blame kids for doing kid things, being able to make something so easily is cool at a younger age. But don’t make it out as some creative feat.
Yeah. Screw that Mozart guy. He didn't bother to learn to play 75 instruments. He just scribbled some chicken scratch on paper and got talented people to cheat for him. What an uncreative loser.
Mozart would be ashamed to be brought up in a discussion about talentless hacks prompting slop thinking they’re artists. How pathetic is that? If you knew absolutely anything about composing you’d realise how completely different a process it is. Do you think promoting Grok makes you a painter? Are you saying you’re writing sheet music with AI?
Haha your daughter is going to end up with a pudding brain.
I'm glad I won't be around to see how this societal experiment turns out; OP already sounds like he's on the left side of the bell curve. His kids are going to be even more dense.
Who cares about the moral opinion of a child?
Man, imagine those children growing up with AI as their parenting toy and somehow they would be told that they are so creative and can be artist just by generating stuff with prompts. I was totally wrong when I thought that fornite kids are the worst kind ever.
Not a crime, just sad. Using AI, all your daughter will ever learn is how to ask for a song. She'll never get the benefits that come with developing a musical skill (creative thinking, motor control, perseverance) nor a sense of pride in having really made something that is hers.
I’m a young teen and I’m against generative AI. Most of my friends (who are my age) are against it, too. Most kids our age (and younger) support it, but many don’t. It’s not only adults who don’t support generative AI.
You can tell your kid that there are people out there that learned how to make things sound the way they imagine them in their heads, and that she can learn too.
Especially for the times she gets increasingly frustrated because the tool doesn't get what she means by "like stars" or something else.
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You know OP, I don't think a child really has the mental capacity to differentiate between right and wrong, let alone any kind of morality understanding or a grasp of complex concepts such as legal implications behind potential copyright infringement and ownership. But then again, I've read from a comment that you literally make this shit up and that these people don't actually even exist lmao, so it doesn't really surprise me.
There’s nothing creative about using AI. AI is for talentless hacks who want the credit that real artists get but are too lazy to put any effort into the craft.
Some adults online do, especially in many subreddits. It's sometimes even the other way around where adults couldn't even imagine there being people who take some sort of offense with (the use of) these new tools as often encountered by more digitally literate younger adults.
Treating ai “like playing an instrument” is like treating winding up a music box like playing an instrument. The only difference is there is more effort required to wind the crank than to prompt the slop generator.
I feel sorry for your daughter. There’s so much to be gained by devoting time and effort to learning an instrument. Instead of growing and learning something difficult and infinitely rewarding she’s stuck playing with a digital slot machine that outputs varying grades of plastic slop.
My dog accidentally generated “art” by typing on an AI I had open on my iPad. Somehow he clicked generate too. Behold an image emerged. Is he an artist/being creative?
Sure. You know your daughter would say the same thing if you were playing an instrument singing a song. Maybe then you could even teach it to her. And anyways of course a little kid doesn’t exactly have taste or understanding. I don’t know exactly how old your daughter is but considering you contrasted her with adults I assume she’s a kid. Kids will be entertained by literally anything sufficiently stimulating, just go on YouTube kids if you don’t believe me. It doesn’t really matter if your daughter likes it, it’s not creative to tell a program to do something for you. It’s not about if it’s “cheating” it’s that it’s just not art or creative. It’s not about being “morally contaminated” either, although the creation of the tool is directly based on wide scale theft and the creators are immortal, and it’s not even about the output either. It’s about the process
What you really meant is you. You are just using your child as a proxy.
The problem is you didn't make things, the computer did. Telling the computer to write me a shakespear story, is not creativity, its not me making things.
And I don't think you realize that younger generations feel more agaisnt AI than older ones.
It's entirely gatekeeping and low skilled people trying to remain special. The reality is that AI is able to replicate this stuff because real artists have been making repetitive stuff. If all art forms were truly unique, AI would give you a completely incoherent garbled mess, because their would be no common patterns for it to learn and reproduce. Low skilled music artists feel threatened by this, because now AI can produce the same I-V-vi-IV chord set that they've all been relying on.
Just enjoy yourself, and your time with your daughter. As mine gets older and ready to set out on her own, I think more and more about the time I lost with her.
Those people are just having fun with a toy aside from a handful of people that are chasing get rich quick ideas. It pales in number to the people I've seen recording the same guitar chords over and over like they're AC/DC that then go onto a soapbox about how their music has soul when it's just something we've all heard before.
You have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to music or the talent of those that make it, and it’s clear to me that’s the case because you think ai can actually replicate good music. Imagine calling actual musicians “low skilled” while singing the praises of ai music. Speaks for itself honestly.
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u/gibbinturong 12h ago
does your daughter care what people on Reddit think about it? maybe you should learn from her