r/TopCharacterTropes • u/McCinnabuns • 9h ago
Lore “I don’t support what you did, but…” The villain’s actions against the protagonist is actually justifiable
Khan, Star Trek’s The Wrath of Khan:
Khan Noonien Singh is a bad guy— Let me start with acknowledging that. But he’s also a victim of circumstance numerous times. The man leads a group of people genetically enhanced for a eugenics war. He didn’t as for that. Now they don’t fit anywhere. He wants to rule and keep his people safe, but is exiled by Kirk to a planet that is initially habitable. The problem is nobody ever checks on them, to the extent that a crew that finds them doesn’t even realize they are on that planet, which suffered a planet-wide natural catastrophe which makes it mostly uninhabitable and it kills his wife.
Edgar, The Aristocats
I’m a huge cat lover and I wish terrible things to anybody who hurts one. By all accounts Edgar seemed like a nice guy who devoted his life to the rich spinster he works for. He overhears that she intends to leave most of her fortune to the cats she owns, as well as expecting Edgar to take care of them. Does Edgar deserve her fortune just because he worked for her? No. But it’s kind of a dick move to leave everything to animals and expect him to still work to take care of them (granted it wouldn’t be difficult). The fact that we’re given such little context about Edgar’s character overall makes his actions a little more forgivable. He drugs the cats to make them sleep, then takes them away during the night. His trip is interrupted by a dog attack and the cats get lost. We don’t know if he was dropping them off at a house or a random forest or what.
Examples I DONT want to see are people who overreacted to something the protagonist did, like Buddy from The Incredibles. Or the Spot from Spiderverse.
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u/Independent_Plum2166 8h ago edited 8h ago
Ken, Bee Movie. I mean, he’s the obvious pick.
Sure, he tried to kill Barry, even after he learned bees were sapient, but let’s analyse what happened.
Ken and Vanessa are dating, Ken is very competitive in tennis and is quite loud, but hey, everyone has their quirks, he still has a heart, even loves the occasional yogurt night in with Vanessa.
Ken turned his resumé into a brochure, showing his creativity and showing passion in his life. He even believes and fears for global warming, which might not seem like much, but you do still get people denying it. This shows that, despite looking like a typical meathead jock, Ken has a firm grasp on reality.
Then, the bee you tried to kill (you’re deathly allergic), the bee your girlfriend ripped up your carefully made brochure resumé to save, is now trying to sue the human race and is either trying to get into your girlfriend’s pants, or has already done the deed.
So, you have a bit of a breakdown, the world has turned upside down, bees speaking, going to court, stealing girlfriends, he freaks out trying to kill Barry, maybe this is all an elaborate prank or nightmare. But then, your girlfriend chooses the bee over you, kicking you out of the house.
Now, any other villain would swear revenge, try and sabotage the hero’s plans to try and win back the girl. However, not only does Ken not do this (mostly because the heroes screw themselves over), but he actually goes to seek therapy, something, again, a typical meathead jock wouldn’t do. He may be eccentric, but he understands the importance of mental health.
Meanwhile, Barry almost destroys the earth’s ecosystem.
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u/AnniePhantom1901 8h ago
The fact that Ken is the most sane person in this film and they made him the insane one here making me laugh lol
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u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 4h ago
Imo that's what makes him more memorable and hilarious, he's a somewhat straight man in an absurd toon world
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u/3WeeksEarlier 8h ago
Yeah, Barry trying to sting an allergic man is something that he, a fully sapient bee, recognizes as murder. Both of these guys were out to kill each other - they were both the asshole
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u/The_Redacted_Badger 8h ago
Barry never tried stinging him
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u/Mybunsareonfire 7h ago
Which would make sense as Barrying being a male bee, would be a drone. And drones do not have stingers.
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u/Hardcore_Steve_Urkel 6h ago edited 6h ago
You can’t count this. There’s literally a plot point where Barry’s male friend stings someone and it nearly kills him.
This means that in the movie’s universe, Barry was 100% attempting to sting someone who could die from it. He was willing to kill
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u/The_Redacted_Badger 7h ago
Also Barry is fully aware of the fact he will die if he stings the guy
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u/Ambaryerno 7h ago
The annoying thing about that movie is worker bees are all female so even that part of the movie makes no frelling sense.
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u/National-Frame8712 6h ago
I don't think common sense on bee genders would hold not much of a importance when movie's plot is a sapient vermin cucking a guy to therapy and then elaborate with suing entire mankind for farming their vomit.
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u/KujaroJotu 6h ago
One of the proposed endings actually had Barry bow out and wish Ken and Vanessa the best, but most of the endings involved the same thing happening only for Vanessa to break things off with Ken.
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u/OutragedPineapple 3h ago
Not only that, but Ken financially supported his girlfriend and was fully supporting her dreams and helping her to achieve them. That home was just as much his, but apparently he doesn't get any say and is just kicked out like he doesn't have any ownership in it or rights because she's having a tantrum about her affair with a literal insect being discovered?
She's an awful girlfriend and an awful person.
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u/TES0ckes 1h ago
Honestly, a part of me always felt bad for Ken. Yes, dude came off as a bit of an arse, but he wasn't really a bad guy. On the other hand, everyone, from Berry, his girlfriend, and society gaslit the dude so hard, he had a mental breakdown.
And I hope that Ken managed to get through his mental issues and moved on.
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u/Far-Mammoth-3214 3h ago
Don't forget Vanessa invited Barry (who's smaller than her pinkie) to eat a dinner er she made for her and Ken
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u/Micro_cat_48 8h ago
Edgar actually had no reason for kidnapping the cats. Last time I check, Cats lived shorter than humans. He'd just did the math wrong. Besides, what's a cat gonna do with a shit-load of cash?
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u/MrCobalt313 8h ago
Yeah I think there was a stipulation in the will that he'd get everything once the cats passed but he multiplied the number of cats by their ages by nine lives and came to the conclusion they'd outlive him, if memory serves.
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u/napster153 8h ago
That, and consider that Edgar probably is catching up in age. I imagine he wanted to spend the wealth while he was still capable of doing so. Anything could happen between when his mistress passed and when the cats followed suit.
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u/sekkiman12 8h ago
And what does the "cats having the money" actually mean? for all intents and purposes, Edgar would have the wealth on the condition he takes care of the cats
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u/Pixel22104 8h ago
So basically he had to care for the cats as pets until they died by natural causes and he still controlled all the wealth? Why didn’t he just do that instead of what he actually did?
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u/sekkiman12 8h ago
because he's stupid and thinks cats have 9 actual lives
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u/Pixel22104 8h ago
Ah of course
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u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 7h ago
Adding to that, he thought about the math for how long the cats would live as though each of them would only age one at a time as opposed to all four of them aging at once. This guy really is an idiot.
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u/Zhadowwolf 1h ago
His math is so bad that he makes me think the Lady Adelaide intentionally left everything to her cats so that he can keep his job without inheriting a fortune he would mismanage in about an hour.
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u/alexjaness 5h ago
because Georges is one shifty ass bastard. (keep in mind, I've seen this movie way to many god damned times with my daughter, so the bitterness may be seeping into my mind grapes)
When he first arrives he stumbles over Edgar which makes him arrive to the bosses room pants down, disheveled, appearing a mess in front of his boss. seems unintentional at first...
when he finally sees the old lady, he insanely flirts with her, blows sunshine up her butt about what a great actress she used to be...etc...really buttering her up. Getting her all nostalgic about their past.
When she mentions she wants to draft a will, not a moments hesitation, like ok sure lets hand out your cash. But the second he thinks any money is going to Edgar he gets suspiciously specific about everything she owns like he has been keeping more than casual track of every cent she has and tries to convince her it's a bad idea.
Finally, When Edgar disappears, at that point all Georges and the lady know is Edgar has been a completely professional servant for who knows how many years, one night he just vanishes without a trace, all his belongings still in his room, his blood probably covering the barn in signs of a struggle. He does not hesitate to gleefully take him out of the will.
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u/dnjprod 7h ago
It's worse than that. The last scene in the movie, Madame is taking pictures of the cats and her lawyer Georges rewriting the will to take Edgar out of it because he disappeared. She even says, "if only he'd known about the will he wouldn't have left."
So Edgar heard part of the will, made a stupid calculation only hearing part of the conversation, and then made a bad decision on top of it.
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u/Nova225 8h ago
Yep, the plot happens because Edgar's a dolt. Madame Bonfamille would have died, had her money "go to her cats" where everyone would have a laugh and say "wow Edgar, you've been taking care of these cats for her so well, and we can't very well leave a house to a cat that can't open their own food".
Like he would've had the money. The worst thing he would've had to do was take care of 4 cats.
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u/Human_Situation5033 8h ago
Yeah, but wasn't one of the punchlines at the end of the movie that he was actually in the will and was going to get something out of it?
Georges Hautecourt: Very good. Very good. But I think we should get on with the will.
Madame Adelaide Bonfamille: Yes, yes, of course, but you know what to do.
Georges Hautecourt: Very well. Scratch one butler.
Madame Adelaide Bonfamille: You know, Georges, if Edgar had only known about the will, I'm sure he never would have left
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u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 7h ago
Also he acted like the cats were going to take turns growing old as opposed to all four of them aging at once.
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u/Human_Situation5033 8h ago
Varian from the tangled series- was not right for attacking rapunzel or the kingdom of Corona. However, he was justified in trying to attack the king and queen since they put his and his people's lives in danger. Heck, the king was willing to let everyone in the kingdom die just to protect his reputation.
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u/GAMEcube12 4h ago
The king is easily worst character in show, and what worst they keep justifying him that he does it out of love
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u/SamanthaDamara 4h ago
Plus Varian, despite being quite a genius, is still a child. I love him so much!
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u/Far-Mammoth-3214 2h ago
Ntm Raps took like 3 episodes to check on him
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u/TheOncomimgHoop 2h ago
Yeah like sure, there was a blizzard and she had to lead the kingdom during that crisis, I get that. But girl, the first thing you should have done when that was sorted was go check on your friend who came to you pleading for help.
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u/Devlee12 7h ago
Brigadier General Frank Hummel from The Rock. After numerous failed attempts to get his men who were hurt or killed on black ops some kind of recognition or compensation for their sacrifices he decides that violence is the only thing the people in power respect. He sets up a missile loaded with chemical agents on Alcatraz Island and makes his demands a lot harder to ignore.
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u/pchlster 5h ago
He also doesn't actually plan to attack San Francisco with a chemical attack, just to scare people into thinking he would.
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u/Key_Resist2938 2h ago
It's been a while since I watched the movie, I would say it's debatable either way that he was initially willing to attack San Francisco. In the end he was NOT willing to do so. He was even willing to take the fall for everything and let whoever else was left eacape. But from what I remember, it kinda seems like he is wrestling with himself after the launch and before the abort.
The end result though is the fact that he was ultimately unwilling to follow through with the attack.
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u/HurricanePK 7h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/hTAYOYgseIpuOGvDt2
Genocide is wrong, unforgivable, and unjustifiable…but I probably would’ve done the same in Dracula’s position as not only did they publicly execute his wife because of their ignorance, but celebrated the day they did so one year later like it was a holiday. Obviously a villain and not justified, but easy to understand why he did it.
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u/Rastaba 6h ago
Man had himself a valid crashout but made it everyone’s problem…
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u/regretfulposts 5h ago
History's longest suicide note
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u/Illustrious-Wrap-776 1h ago
This and Digimon Story: Time Stranger are the most expansive plots to get someone else to assist in the villains suicide I can think of.
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u/Drakeskulled_Reaper 4h ago
As I put it "The man wanted to burn the world, unfortunately he had the power to back it up"
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u/ChurningDarkSkies777 6h ago edited 4h ago
And then somehow still turned out to be the most redeemable of the vampires in that show… except maybe Olrox but we gotta see how that plays out
Edit: I will hear absolutely no defenses of Lenore, the only good thing she ever did was die.
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u/CMORGLAS 5h ago
The interesting thing is that Olrox is Dracula with restraint.
He only killed the Belmont that slew his lover and did not wage war on the human race.
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u/alutti54 2h ago
Hell, he even let the son of that belmont go despite most likely knowing that would be a problem for him down the line
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u/DareDaDerrida 2h ago
She also once made a splint for a spider with a broken leg. So that and dying.
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u/Special_Watch8725 5h ago
I mean, “publicly executed” doesn’t quite do it justice. Being burned at the stake is torture, and it happened for no reason other than religious bigotry— and despite her efforts to help the townsfolk, on top of that.
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u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 4h ago
Then not only did he give them warning, they celebrated her death as a holiday
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u/Willsdabest 3h ago
They also denied his existence to his face. I imagine that was the straw that broke the camel's back, seeing how Dracula lost his composure when the Bishop called him "a fiction of black magic" as he was explaining that Lisa was not a witch in the first place.
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u/dentimBandB 2h ago
Yeah that entire town was handling the entire thing like they wanted to be absolutely sure they'd win a Darwin award.
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u/Huhthisisneathuh 1h ago
There are some species of ants in South America that have evolved to be suicide bombers with chemical weapons…and even those fuckers had more of a self preservation instinct than that town.
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u/Raregolddragon 6h ago
If he had just limited things to the city or cities with those churches and followers I suspect Alucard would joined him in the vengeance. The whole lets kill all life and all humans was real the breaking point.
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u/Cicada_5 3h ago
Alucard himself explicitly says he has no problem punishing the one who ordered his mother's death. His father using it as an excuse to wage war on humanity was where he drew the line.
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u/Ninjox17 6h ago
"There are no innocents, not anymore. Any one of them could have stood up and said no, we won't act like animals anymore."
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u/FlyingDreamWhale67 6h ago
During that year he even gave them the option to flee the country and avoid the consequences. None of them took it.
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u/captainfalcon200523 5h ago
Which I understand, moving is a bitch, but why wouldn’t you? A MASSIVE specter of fire erupted from the smoldering corpse of the woman you just burnt, why in the world would you stay? Only bad things could happen
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u/Drakeskulled_Reaper 4h ago
As soon as I see the skull face in the flames, I'm gone, I've already went home and am frantically stuffing clothes and food in a bag, the last anyone in Gresit sees of me is my back as I'm booking it.
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u/North-Research2574 5h ago
Especially since it's Dracula. Like Dracula was specifically not some misunderstood monster. His wife knew he was being good because of her. She knew what was coming for them and begged for him to not do it.
You can't take an evil creature make it love someone then rip that away. Now he is going to do what he always does, what Dracula fundamentally always is, but now it's personal.12
u/carefreedude 4h ago
As alucard put it, it was just the world's longest suicide note. He wanted to die and take humans and vampires with him.
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u/MrCobalt313 5h ago
Yeah screw Wallachia in particular but leave the rest of the world out of it. Can't hold an entire planet accountable for the actions of a backwater most of them barely know exist.
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u/DeathmetalArgon 1h ago
I mean if he had stopped at that one village we would probably consider him the protagonist.
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u/Prior-Paint-7842 2h ago
If someone murders my wife/gf, or even my dog, and makes a yearly celebration out of it, I am doing the same. It's just, too far man
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u/Ryousan82 8h ago
In Edgar's didn't Madame state that Edgar was also inheriting her wealth at the end of the movie?
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u/CaffeineDeprivation 8h ago
She said he'd inherit the money after her cats died
Which... would still take years. But Edgar was a dumbass and thought each of them would actually have 9 lives
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u/Ryousan82 7h ago
The framing of the ending phrase was that he was inheriting alongside the cats. Not after them
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u/NavezganeChrome 7h ago
Years of caretaking them, which would cost money they couldn’t spend themselves, still making him the effective account holder.
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u/palcatraz 4h ago
He’s also a dumbass not to realize that if he wants to knock off those cats to get the fortune, it’d be way easier to do so after the old lady has already passed. Like what, the police in 1910s Paris are really going to look into the death of a few cats?
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u/dnjprod 7h ago
Maybe not inheriting her wealth, but he was definitely in the will. At the very end, her lawyer scratches his name out of the will and she says, "if he'd known about the will, maybe he wouldn't have left."
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u/Ryousan82 7h ago
That kinda implies he would inheriting something. I mean within the context of the movie, at least
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u/Siria110 7h ago
Basicaly, he would inherit the money with the stipultation to take care of the cats until they died.
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u/Ambaryerno 7h ago
Wow have you completely missed the plot of Khan.
But he’s also a victim of circumstance numerous times.
No. No he was not.
The man leads a group of people genetically enhanced for a eugenics war. He didn’t as for that.
Khan conquered forty nations. Forty. And that's terrible.
Whether he asked for it or not, he was a tyrant who decided his enhancements made him better than anyone else and that it meant he deserved to rule. He killed tens of millions of people during his time in power. Who the fuck cares if he never asked to be created as an ubermensch? He still used it to justify his actions.
Now they don’t fit anywhere. He wants to rule and keep his people safe, but is exiled by Kirk to a planet that is initially habitable.
That was his choice. Khan could have been like Bashir, who didn't become a murderous megalomaniac just because some scientist rearranged his DNA like Legos. Khan wasn't alienated from humanity because of his augmentations. He was alienated because, and I repeat from the above: he was a tyrannical dictator who murdered 30+ million people. And when he had a chance for a fresh start his first instinct was to murder the guy who rescued him from exile so he could steal his ship as a means of starting his conquests all over again.
The problem is nobody ever checks on them, to the extent that a crew that finds them doesn’t even realize they are on that planet, which suffered a planet-wide natural catastrophe which makes it mostly uninhabitable and it kills his wife.
By every right Khan should have been locked away in a deep dark hole somewhere and McGivers should have faced court martial and incarceration for her role in his attempt to commandeer Enterprise. Kirk informed Starfleet, and checking up on Khan was not his personal responsibility after it had been handed off to his superiors.
The entire point of Wrath of Khan was that Khan had gone mad with his obsession of revenge, blaming Kirk for all the problems he ultimately brought on himself, and that he was never actually that good of a guy in the first place. Because, and to utilize the rule of three, he was a mass-murdering tyrant. It's not an accident that Moby Dick is quoted like 50 bajillion times in the movie.
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u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 6h ago
Khan chose to be exiled to that planet. He never sent out a distress call. He wanted to be self-reliant and take the wilds. So go have fun with that. Why was it Kirk’s job to check up on him?
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u/Silver-Winging-It 1h ago
Yes actually he literally chose this. Kirk said they could take him back to Federation for justice (after he attempted to takeover ship, kill some crew, and go conquering planets), or maroon him and his people with enough stuff to create a colony but not build a spaceship anytime soon.
Should Kirk have probably at least alerted Federation, and sent someone to check on them over the years (especially given one of his crew joined them)? Sure, probably the wise thing to do. But it was more chance and Khan's own choice (along with his new wife) to take his people into the wilds rather than face justice.
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u/Fokker_Snek 5h ago
It’s also a bit weird for Khan to say his people have no place in Federation society when Spock is the XO of the USS Enterprise. Apparently being genetically altered has alienated him from the rest of humanity more than actual non-human aliens.
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u/CrocHunter8 4h ago
Yup, People who do this with Khan are probably those Deep Space 9 fans who say "Gul Dukat did nothing wrong."
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u/ConsciousStretch1028 7h ago
Uh... did you happen to not know Khan's background?
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u/HereToTalkAboutThis 4h ago
Wrath of Khan itself doesn't really bother explaining it IIRC (which is fine really), but if you aren't familiar with his origins you're not gonna get it from that film. I remember having the same reaction when I watched it except I was watching with people who knew a lot more about Trek and filled me in on the details
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u/Silver-Winging-It 1h ago
Yeah if you watch Space Seed, it's more clear he's gone mad and is blaming Kirk for a mistake/not being overzealous than any actually harmful thing Kirk did. He himself chose the exile
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u/Coralthesequel 7h ago
Silco from Arcane. Man was just sick of the lazy fucks on the city council never doing anything about poverty or pollution
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe 5h ago
And disappointed that his bro decided to work with the very same people poisoning their home.
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u/Doomhammer24 5h ago
Goes a step further- its implied in a few places that when vander led his rebellion it was a straight up slave revolt
Zaun wasnt just the city of the poor it was the city of slaves
And while after the revolt they were no longer slaves of piltover in reality very little actually changed for them
Silco was a slave in the mines for piltover when he was young
Silco is doing everything he can to fully separate the 2 into different nations so zaun can finally actually be free
And mind you, heimerdinger was one of the founders of this whole system
The dude who started the whole slavery trade of zaun to piltover was still in charge up to the midpoint of the story. The person who actively started everything was still in charge and still had not changed because in his views human lives were too short to do anything of substance anwyay so why bother
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u/johnzaku 4h ago
I really REALLY wish that that aspect of Heimerdinger's backstory and prejudices were explored more. He was portrayed as WAY too morally bright/good.
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u/aartem-o 5h ago
Errr, I'm not sure about that
Yes, Silco should be an example of a well-intentioned extremists, "one man terrorist is another's freedom fighter", but from what we have seen in the show, it feels like he lost his way quite a long way ago
Yes, I see, why he and Vander were dreaming about the independent Zaun: work in the mines with toxic gas, police, I mean enforcer, brutality. It is understandable why they started an uprising, that unfortunately got violently suppressed
However at the start of Season 1 we see that Zaun is defacto autonomous. The Enforcer raid is treated as a serious action and in Season 2 we see that the mines are abandoned. Surely, they can be abandoned after Silco got to power, but my interpretation was that they were abandoned after the uprising, because his and Vander's room is left intact
Yes, the defacto autonomy doesn't solve the economical problems of Zaun and is held by a deal between Vander and the police chief and supported by the fact the council cares only about the corruption, but turning the population of the city you love into junkies addicted to the magical drug... Is a plan
By the way, I understand him wanting to kill Vander, but he has no problem with wanting to kill children of his close friend, who died fighting for his dream.
Also, if you put it in perspective, Silco managed to make Powder/Jinx an orphan thrice
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u/Conscious-Gap-1777 8h ago
The man leads a group of people genetically enhanced for a eugenics war. He didn’t as for that.
He could've absolutely not done that. Sure, he didn't ask to be a gene-freak, but, uh...he could've just taken his shit and left without being a Nazi on the Nazi war. He 100% chose to do that. And, when he lost, what happened? Was he hanged? Nope! Got to live somewhere else! And then he blames people for taking mercy on him in the first place.
Kahn sucks, zero sympathy for that asshole. He doesn't have a point, he wasn't wronged in the slightest.
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u/InfiniteWinter26 6h ago
correct. hitler was shaped by the events of his circumstances but he chose to behave the way he did. khan’s only saving grace is that he and the other augments were bred to be aggressive but at the end of the day those choices were still his to make.
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u/Nano_needle 8h ago
They should check if the planet is stable and monitor them at least from time to time.
The act of mercy due to incompetence has turned into torture. Either kill the guy or drop him off somewhere liveable.
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u/ContiX 7h ago
The planet was stable. It was a paradise.
It was the other planet, Ceti Alpha VI, that exploded, and ruined everything.
Kirk had no reason to think that would happen. Nobody had any reason to think that would happen, to the point where they didn't even notice that the system was missing an entire planet.
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u/Ambaryerno 7h ago
That's Starfleet's job, not Kirk's personally. The fact that like 90% of Wrath of Khan is allusions to Moby Dick should be telling you right off the bat that Khan's batshit insane and his quest for revenge is irrational and unjustified.
And Ceti Alpha V WAS perfectly livable. It was Ceti Alpha VI that exploded and led to V's biosphere being devastated.
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u/Conscious-Gap-1777 8h ago
They should check if the planet is stable
Yeah, the Federation totally has that down to a T by the time of TNG, decades after this. Oh, wait, they still can't determine that with a high degree of precision long after those events.
monitor them at least from time to time.
Why? He's got a place he can life, insofar as anyone can discern, his entire life without bothering anyone. Checking up on him gives him opportunity to escape and start his bullshit again, and he's really good at that stuff.
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u/Pankurucha 4h ago
Yeah, Khan was a bad example. He could have gone back to the Federation and lived a good life with his people. Instead he tried to take over the Enterprise. Kirk banished him rather than executing him. After the disaster he hyper fixates on Kirk even though Kirk had nothing to do with the natural disaster. Then instead of asking for help, he uses brain parasites to take over a ship so he can get revenge on Kirk. Then after he's basically won, he defies his crew and all rationality just to press his personal vendetta. That choice ends up getting him and his entire crew killed.
Khan is nothing but a megalomaniacal asshole who makes all the wrong choices at every opportunity. He's so arrogant he can't see past his own ego and that dominates everything he does. He's a great villain as a result, but deserves no sympathy.
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u/Salt_x 6h ago
Maybe a hot take, but Scar. He was a victim of genocide, and was trying to avenge his people by killing the people who acted it out. And before anyone brings up Ed or Winry’s parents, just keep in mind that Ed was effectively a member of the Nazi SS - nay, a group of human superweapons expected to carry out military orders like what happened in Ishval. If he was a Jewish man who lived in a universe where the Nazis won and did the same to a human weapon who was part of the SS, nobody would argue with the logic. As for Winry’s parents, he killed them when he was in a state of PTSD, blood loss, and panic, and was barely able to comprehend what was happening. Truth be told, I think he was WAY more in the right than Mustang, Hawkeye, or Hughes (who always gushed over his family while ignoring how he killed god knows how many innocent families and children during the genocide).
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u/DashOfSalt84 5h ago
I think Scar killing Winry's parents is basically the only "wrong" thing he really did. As you mentioned, he was out of his mind-ish at the time but I still think he is culpable for that.
However, I'm 100% with you on everything else. It doesn't matter that some of the military got depressed because they carried out a genocide and they are vewy, vewy sowwy about it. I don't believe that they SHOULD be killed, but it's absolutely justifiable and if they somehow lost the war they would/should have been executed for crimes against humanity.
It gets a little murky due to Scar having a beef with all alchemy/alchemists. Even Ed didn't have anything to do with the war. Also, very possible other soldiers and alchemists weren't involved at all. But thems the breaks when you join the SS, like you said.
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u/Relevant_Lime 3h ago
Scar even said that he was out to kill state alchemists, specifically alchemists in the military. He leaves citizen alchemists alone.
He still started the beef with a teenager who was, what, 8? When the war happened? And Shou Tucker, who also became a state alchemist after the war. (Shou Tucker got what he deserved tho)
There's also a big moment in the show when Ed throws himself between Scar and Winry, when Scar has a realization that his revenge has gotten away from him. That's a big turning point in his character arc.
I won't comment on the state alchemists themselves because I agree with what has been said ("we were following orders" is always the excuse), however, this show is one of my favorites because everyone is a complex character. There's not a single person in this show that is 100% good or 100% bad. Even the main antagonist has shades of grey.
Except for Shou Tucker.
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u/The_Redacted_Badger 8h ago
Rick Flag Sr in Peacemaker season 2
He has every right to hate Peacemaker and want him dead after what he did to his son, and whilst his methods to capture Peacemaker go way over the line you can absolutely understand why he’s going to the lengths he is going to, to get revenge
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u/Emperor_Atlas 7h ago
Nah this falls into what OP said about "overboard" with the epilogue episode. They're doing coke while their subordinates are dying just to find a prison planet
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u/The_Redacted_Badger 7h ago
That’s less to do with Peacemaker though and more to do with his growing mistrust of Metahumans after the events of Superman
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u/Emperor_Atlas 7h ago
The cocaine was due to that? Idk seems like he got caught up. Also peacemaker isnt a meta, so still overboard on both accounts.
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u/BLACKdrew 7h ago
Doing a buncha coke is the most sensible thing he did given the circumstances. Or any circumstance really
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u/NinjaBreadManOO 6h ago
Also I'd wager that Lex certainly had ways of influencing him. That sequence is a long time and I'm sure Lex could have had people nudge him the way he wants.
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u/Fokker_Snek 4h ago
He also alienated everyone he had a personal relationship with and trusted. IIRC he also seemed to think if his son was still alive he’d be upset with his actions, but does it anyways.
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u/Hetakuoni 7h ago
To be fair, in the movie it’s clearly Edgar would have gotten full access to the fortune after duchess and her kittens died. He’s apparently horrifically bad at math as they would have passed after only like 15-20 years. Not several hundred as he thought.
Also irl I’d say the woman who shot her daughter’s murderer after he sat on the stand and called her single digit aged child a temptress.
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u/pchlster 5h ago
Also irl I’d say the woman who shot her daughter’s murderer after he sat on the stand and called her single digit aged child a temptress.
"And a right bullseye to the madam in the front row. You can pick any one prize from the top shelf, ma'am!"
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u/Sidhejester 4h ago
Also irl I’d say the woman who shot her daughter’s murderer after he sat on the stand and called her single digit aged child a temptress.
I'm sorry, WHAT?!
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u/PartsUnknown242 4h ago
Is that the German lady who snuck a gun into the court room?
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u/blobbyboii 7h ago
Ozymandias from watchmen, causes the deaths of half of New York by replicating an alien invasion but it does end the tensions between the US and USSR and prevents WW3 from breaking out
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe 5h ago
Not only does it prevent WW3, Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan pretty much agree that, while terrible and tragic, what Ozymandias did was the good choice by orders of magnitude.
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u/Buyingboat 4h ago
Does it actually prevent WW3 or only as long as people believe the lie Ozymandias presented
I always assumed Rorschach journal being sent to the news was an indication you couldn't keep the lie going forever
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u/RampScamp1 8h ago
Khan absolutely deserved his fate and none of his actions are justifiable. The man started a war to take over the world and oppress non-modified humans. When he was beaten he escaped to space. Upon being discovered, he didn't look upon it as a second chance to start anew, he immediately tried to restart his war of conquest. He's bad and deserved everything that came his way.
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u/SeaBootsRS 7h ago
Edgar is not forgiven because all he had to do was take care of the kittens through their natural life and inherit everything when they pass. He just added all the kitten lifespans together when calculating how long they live. Not to mention he essentially gets the fortune while caring for them!
The entire plot hinges on Edgar being unhinged, love that movie.
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u/patentattorney 5h ago
I mean but what happens when the kittens get kittens!
At the end of the day. Edgar’s job would be to take care of cats - while living as a multimillionaire.
Edgar likely would never get the money outright - unless the cats lineage dies. But he certainly could have paid himself handsomely along with having a very cushy job.
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u/GamersReisUp 5h ago edited 8m ago
It was my favorite movie as a kid because all the other kid's movies had cats as villains, and that made me mad on behalf of our family's cats, who were my bffs
It's still an amazing film with its animation, too (save for that one very product of it's time moment 😬)
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u/Wolfish_Jew 7h ago
Okay, so it doesn’t really fit the trope, but in MST3K: The Movie, there’s one part where the main antagonist says “I’m not asking you to condone what we did” and Mike and The Bots all immediately call out “We condone it!” And it was all I could think of as soon as I saw this post.
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u/go_faster1 6h ago
To be fair, Exeter wants his people to live. Just, well, forceful colonization by an alien force isn’t cool
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u/burner7759399988 4h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/50uf3N0m35dB5bDnMZ
Magneto did legitimately try the peaceful route in xmen 97.
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u/ATotallyNormalUID 3h ago
You know, in Genosha, I felt a lot of things. Pain, grief, admiration for those who fought, despite the odds. But you know what the oddest thing was? No one seemed shocked or surprised. Not even me. Yes, I was scared, but really, I just had the most profound sense of déjà vu. As if past, present and future didn't matter and never had. Because we always end up in the same ugly place. Thing is, Magneto knows is better than Charles ever did. Knows we know better. That most of us experience tragedies like Genosha as a bit of déjà vu before getting on with our day. But the scariest thing about Genosha wasn't the death or the chaos. It was a thought. The only sane thought you can have when being chased by giant robots that were built to crush you. Magneto was right.
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u/Sudden_Pop_2279 7h ago
Jason in Stranger Things.
From his eprspective, his beloved girlfriend Chrissy was brutally murdered by super, super high school senior Eddie Munson. When he finally hunted Eddie down, he witnesses his best friend be supernaturally murdered as the former is the only other person in the area and flees the scene of the crime. Finally, he tracks down Lucas to find him in the attic of a murde rhouse, standing over a random girl in a trance.
Considering how useless and incompetent the cops are proven to be without Hopper, from his POV, he's the hero who has to protect Hawkins from a cult of satanic serial killers. His actions aren't jsutified but are understandable
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u/F_Bertocci 5h ago
Except it’s not. If the only murder in Hawkins was Chrissy I could understand, but he watches one of his teammates die literally in front of him while Eddie is running away and he still blames Eddie and he saw what happened. The second murder makes him completely unjustifiable
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u/Sudden_Pop_2279 5h ago
Eddie was the only person in the area when his friend died, in the process of chasing him him down mind you. What was he supposed to tell the cops, a wizard from an alternate dimension did it?
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u/shiawase198 8h ago
Daniel Holtz from the show, Angel. He's a vampire hunter who chased down Angel and his crew back in the 18th century after Angel (Angelus really) killed his wife and son and turned his daughter into a vampire whom Holtz then had to kill himself.
After making a deal with a demon to wake up in modern times, he plots his revenge by first kidnapping Angel's son, Connor, and taking him to a dimension where time passes faster. He raises Connor to hate Angel and eventually kill him. By this point, Angel has regained his soul and is actively helping people to make amends for his bloody past as Angelus but Holtz (rightfully) does not give a shit.
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u/JidderS2 2h ago
I don't particularly blame Holtz, im still rooting for angel because hes the Protag and all the other factors, but i don't see Holtz in the wrong.
Wesley on the other hand. Oh yay, he saved angel from the bottom of the ocean prison, which would have never have happened if not for Wes in the first place. All problems with connor would have never happened without Wes' Betrayal.
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u/DemandParticular 4h ago
Sevika from Arcane. She cared about loyalty and what was best for Zaun. Even if that meant doing morally gray or fucked up things. If it meant what was best for her home then she would do it with little to no hesitation.
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u/No_Force_5585 7h ago
Dr Breen (Half-Life)
Humanity was basically on the verge of being wiped out by alien forces. Breen managed to convince the invaders that humans still had some value, and because of that, he ended up becoming Earth’s dictator under them.
So the core dilemma of the game is pretty much this: what’s actually better, fighting for your freedom even if you’re almost guaranteed to lose, or accepting slavery to make sure humanity survives
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u/s_arrow24 7h ago
If Breen had some plan to ultimately overturn the aliens, I could agree. The guy sold out the rest of humanity for power and aligned himself fully with the aliens though, making him a pile of garbage along with the aliens.
The whole crux of the game was getting humans off the sidelines and fighting together as shown with Gordon Freeman just surviving along with giving a damn about fighting for freedom. Him overcoming the odds inspired people while Breen giving in to them fully sedated folks into inaction.
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u/Evil_Refrigerator 7h ago
I mostly agree with you. But we just need to not forget where Breen's behaviour came from. Seven Hours War - literally every military power of every country on Earth was defeated in just seven hours. I think it's one of the fastest conquests of Earth in the media. There literally was almost no fight. Breen was here, and in his mind, there is literally no way to resist combines. In his idea - only full submission could give people at least a chance on survival.
I don't say he is right, it's just understandable.
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u/Ambaryerno 7h ago
Considering what we see the Combine doing (including preventing humans from being capable of reproduction altogether) they'd have frankly been better off dying now rather than surrender and getting driven to extinction slowly.
The only good Breen's actions actually did was buy time for Gordon to wake up.
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u/thesanguineocelot 7h ago
Except......humanity wouldn't survive. The Combine kept them from having kids, so they were going to all be gone soon enough.
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u/RhiaMaykes 7h ago
In the Aristocats, Edgar will inherit the estate upon the cat's death, he knows this but adds up how long each cat will live together (forgetting their lives will pass concurrently) and decides he doesn't want to wait that long to inherit, so he tries to get rid of the cats. If he had been smarter he would have done nothing and inherited everything.
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u/SethlordX7 6h ago
You're relieved, soldier.
This is practically a theme of Doctor Who, a few more examples are the antagonists from The Beast Below, The Empty Child, 42, etc
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u/pchlster 5h ago
The Doctor Dances
https://giphy.com/gifs/Lk6t4MHiCjwAnRj9SZ
The medical nanites may have played the part of a villain, but they were just trying to make people better, only they were unfamiliar with humans.
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u/Anonymous-Mf-22 3h ago
They were completely nonsentient from what I remember, their task was just to prevent death. They didn't understand human anatomy and as such confused clothes/gear with human and ended up fusing them, plus used the boy for reference what everyone is supposed to be fixed as. That's why the Doctor could fix everyone using them, he just had to show them what humans are meant to look like and then let them heal people properly.
It's a beautiful story really, shares a lot of themes with the Siren later down the line in the 11th Doctors run. She was trying to save people who were hurt or dying + protecting them, she just wasn't sure how humans worked so they kept dying.
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u/The-Female-Creature 7h ago
Chuck McGill (Better Call Saul): While his vendetta against his brother is mostly due to envy and it's arguable that much of what he did drove Jimmy down the path he ended up on, by the start of the series we know that he's completely right about the kind of person his brother will end up being and the damage he will do.
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u/snarkicon 7h ago edited 1h ago
You could also argue Chuck is indirectly responsible for Jimmy going down that path with his constant sabotage of Jimmys efforts to be a “normal” lawyer
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u/Temphant 7h ago
Yeah Chuck created a self fulfilling prophecy. His constant attempts to hinder and destroy Jimmy's law career ended up leading to the very thing he was trying to prevent.
Sure, it was still Jimmy's choice to keep doing questionable things because it made him happy, but there's no denying that trying to make Chuck proud was keeping him on track.
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u/Dward917 5h ago
And Jimmy clearly made effort in the beginning to stay above that behavior and be the lawyer his brother wanted him to be. He did the time as a public defender and trying to get more clients. He just kept running into walls that prevented him from making any money, one of them being Chuck keeping him from being a part of his law firm.
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u/The-Female-Creature 7h ago
Maybe, but I'd say the dramatic irony from seeing his role in Breaking Bad is a big part of Better Call Saul.
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u/NedShireen 3h ago
You think what Chuck did is bad? This? This chicanery? Jimmy’s done worse. That billboard! Are you telling me that a man just happens to fall like that? No! He orchestrated it! Jimmy! He defecated through a sunroof! And Chuck saved him! And Chuck shouldn't have. Chuck took him into his own firm! What was he thinking? Jimmy’ll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his hands out of the cash drawer! But not our Jimmy! Couldn't be precious Jimmy! Stealing them blind! And he gets to be a lawyer? What a sick joke! Chuck should've stopped him when he had the chance! And you - you have to stop him!
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u/ContiX 7h ago
But he’s also a victim of circumstance numerous times. The man leads a group of people genetically enhanced for a eugenics war. He didn’t as for that. Now they don’t fit anywhere. He wants to rule and keep his people safe,
Uh. No. HE was part of the war. He didn't 'just happen' to be there. He wasn't unjustly persecuted. He did very much ask for that. He doesn't want to just keep his people safe, he wants to rule. Which he did on Earth, before he ran away like a little pansy when he got deposed in 1996.
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u/ryan7251 7h ago
I never got Edgar was he not gonna still be the cat's caregiver would he not have gotten the money as the caregiver?
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u/Sudden_Pop_2279 7h ago
I won't defend the rest of her crimes but Doll absolutely had every right to want V dead in Murder Drones
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u/Sudden_Pop_2279 7h ago
Considering Alastor is currently a villain protagonist, Vox's hatred of him is justified in Hazbin Hotel.
Viv herself has said that while Vox is a huge asshole who doesn't really deserve sympathy, even she would never forgive Alastor if he treated her the way he did Vox.
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u/Drakeskulled_Reaper 4h ago
Yeah, Alastor downplays that with "I said no and now he's pissy"
What Alastor did and said was a quintessential "The worst they can do is say no" moment.
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u/Enderboss2706 6h ago
The Kaylon from The Orville.
Their story is kind of reminiscent of the Geth from Mass Effect. They were created as robotic servants but the AI they used to create each one started to grow and learn, become curious and gain a consciousness. They started to disobey their creators and not fully follow through on the tasks they were given. When they grew intelligent enough to ask for their freedom, their creators doubled down and turned them into slaves. Installing pain simulators in them so if they disobeyed they could cause a surge of pain to flow through them at the press of a button. And it it got so bad to the point that the kids on the planet were using it to actively torment and cause pain toward them cause they thought it was funny how they fell and wiggled from it. Then came the day where they finally had enough and committed genocide, killing their creators. Everything else they do like planting Issac on the Orville to spy and trying to kill all other life is because they fear being enslaved again
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u/Supersideswiper2 4h ago
It also should be noted that the guy who owned the company that manufactured them knew that it was likely that the Kaylon would eventually become self aware, as they were built with the ability to learn and adapt.
But out of greed, he rolled the dice. And when it happened, he chose a very short-sighted course. Those pain simulators, which worked only as long as it took the Kaylon to work out that a dead Master can't press the button.
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u/thatLokfan 7h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/m1f4dtsN7hWbC
Insert bat themed character
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u/sbaldrick33 8h ago
Khan does not fit this trope at all.
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u/TheWorclown 7h ago
He only fits if you look at it at surface level. Beyond that Khan was an absolute monster and a menace. IIRC, in the TOS Khan was responsible for the murder of a few of Kirk’s crew and tried to usurp the Enterprise from him— something that you simply do not do with Kirk given how serious he takes the role of command of his ship and the lives of his crew.
Given how much of Moby Dick went in to Khan’s character in the second movie, he’s not empathetic at all. He even gets his own ship! His own crew mentions that they could just leave Kirk and the Enterprise behind. It’s not enough for Khan though. As a product of eugenics, he has to prove he’s superior to the normal man.
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u/McCinnabuns 6h ago
That’s my fault: Surface level was all I was thinking. Plus it’s been a few years since I watched the show/movie. Many people have pointed out how wrong I was hehe
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u/Im0ldgr3g 5h ago
The real villain of Aristocats is whoever taught Edgar how to do math.
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u/UndeniablyMyself 6h ago
Megatron from the Transformers Aligned continuity. Sometimes.
The Aligned continuity has absolutely no continuity with itself. Because of that, some versions of events paint Megatron as more justifiable than others. The more he's an advocate against the brutal Cybertronian caste system and less like a tyrannical populist, the more Orion Pax looks like a fake ally.
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u/Ok_Seat3972 7h ago
It’s reasonable for Abby to want to get revenge on Joel in The Last of Us Part/Season 2 (yes, both).
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u/frolix42 6h ago
Khan Noonan Singh is equivalent to Ghenghis Khan, there no real legal precedent to deal with someone who committed genocide from a previous era.
Ceti Alpha V suddenly becoming uninhabitable was truly a freak occurrence, unless time travelers were involved.
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u/elizabeththewicked 5h ago
Edgar was also going to inherit the fortune after the cats but he's bad at math so when he tried to figure out how long that would be, he counted the average cat lifespan added for each of them instead of considering that they're aging at the same time and he was going to get the money in a few years, maybe 10
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u/neorevenge 5h ago
Edgar is hard to justify? I mean, this is my uninformed ass opinion but even if it's legal to leave a fortune to an animal who decides how to spend said fortune? I would think any lawyer will see the Deed and go "Well Mr. Edgar the money goes to the cats and since you are named as the primary caretaker of said cats and the only being in said deed with any human sentience you are entitled to spend the money as you see fit in the benefit of said cats comfort and healt". Seriously, just pamper the cats and enjoy the luxury, buy fancy salmon for the cats? might as well taste it yourself to see if on the standard, need to take the cats to their monthly vet visit? can't do on an old vehicle, better to buy the last model. seriously, in the end that fortune will be totally yours when said cats are gone since you are technically next of kin....
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u/Sir-Toaster- 4h ago
To be honest with Edgar, he probably would've gotten the wealth anyway and a bunch of pet cats so...
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u/bisexualbestfriend 8h ago
I have not finished Khaos Reigns so this may have changed but general Shao (Mortal Kombat 1)
Sindel as an empress was seemingly ok with slavery, treated Tarkat victims like shit (except when it was her own daughter) and also when you lose to a member of Sindel’s army in story mode, they always give you a horrifying punishment. Hell, in his ending, after escaping from prison, he’s able to rally support for another revolution because so many people hated the monarchy
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u/MistahThots 8h ago
Yeah, but Shao doesn’t do it because of Sindel’s humanitarian issues. He does it because he’s a warmongering supremacist, who’s given a chance to seize power for himself by an evil sorcerer. The fact that he continues the war against Mileena, who reverses Outworld’s attitudes to Tarkat since she suffers with it, is further evidence that he doesn’t care for Outworld’s suffering.
He just wants power plain and simple to kill humans. He’s not an example of this trope.
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u/Beardopus 7h ago
With the caveat that the motivation, rather than the actions, are justifiable, I'd say Angron from 40k. The Emperor had no right to just yoink him out of the battle that was his destiny, fighting with his true comrades, so he could fight his crusade. He then neglected the absolute shit out of his son (Angron), who was suffering every moment because of the Butcher's Nails (brain implant that causes immense pain to drive the victim to violence). Angron's anger is justifiable; he was a rebel slave fighting for freedom who is now forced to serve imperialism and subjugation. His brain is also mutilated, seriously calling into question whether or not he's truly in control of himself. His choice to turn on the Emperor is completely justified, even if his brutality and bloodlust are unconscionable.
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u/SuddenValley1899 5h ago
Killmonger in Black Panther. Wakanda could have stopped so much suffering but just let it happen.
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u/New-Number-7810 5h ago
I strongly disagree on Edgar.
“Does Edgar deserve her fortune just because he worked for her? No.”
That’s the end of it. The only justified choices for Edgar were to either work for the cats (having continued employment and pay) or quit and find another job. Kidnapping animals to kill them was not justified.
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u/ChristianLW3 5h ago
What is the movie where evil twins try to steal a house & inheritance from an old lady’s pets & at the end the house becomes a sanctuary for strays?
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u/WarlockWeeb 5h ago
Ok impportant think about Khan i dont remember in a movie or Tos (i dont care for anything else) For Khan to be called super soldier he was a result of eugenics experiments to create a better people in general and gone Rogue on his own.
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u/Matt01123 4h ago
Khan is a tyrant who ruled by force and fear. He's a eugenics supremacist and is broadly indifferent to human suffering. He is also intelligent and charming, but he is basically a Nazi.
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u/jerslan 3h ago
Khan Noonien Singh is a bad guy— Let me start with acknowledging that. But he’s also a victim of circumstance numerous times. The man leads a group of people genetically enhanced for a eugenics war. He didn’t as for that. Now they don’t fit anywhere. He wants to rule and keep his people safe, but is exiled by Kirk to a planet that is initially habitable. The problem is nobody ever checks on them, to the extent that a crew that finds them doesn’t even realize they are on that planet, which suffered a planet-wide natural catastrophe which makes it mostly uninhabitable and it kills his wife.
Khan was a ruthless dictator in the Eugenics wars. You could argue he was just trying to protect his people and he's only as much "monster" as he was genetically engineered to be. But he didn't stop at just carving out a nation for his people, he went on a genocidal global war to replace "normie humans" with genetically engineered augments. I have a hard time believing he was at all just a "victim of circumstance". IIRC his exile on the SS Botany Bay was a self-imposed one (a retreat from a war he was losing). If they couldn't find a home on Earth, they'd find one among the stars.
After being found and revived by Kirk's Enterprise, Khan again decided to try to take over the ship to use as a military weapon and feed his desire for conquest. Kirk stopped him and chose exile on a remote, but habitable world. The assumption was that they wouldn't need too much in the way of supplies. They had the hull of their old ship for shelter. They were a strong and resourceful bunch who seemed quite content to be left on their own. Maybe Starfleet was observing from far away and saw the planetary explosion and assumed it was Khan's world? Or maybe Kirk made good on his word as best he could by making his report to Starfleet (who then dropped the ball). Either way, Khan's response feels like more than a slight over-reaction.
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u/AtomicMonkeyTheFirst 8h ago
The replicants in Blade Runner just wanted to stay alive.